Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Where in the book of Jeremiah do we read that the New Covenant was established with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?
The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel
- Thread starter northwye
- Start date
Where in the book of Jeremiah do we read that the New Covenant was established with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Stop the personal barbs, Jerry. I'm quoting Paul though not verbatim. He said
"Whatever God promised to the fathers, he has fulfilled by resurrecting Christ from the dead." Acts 13:36.
You see, you have a MO that you are not aware of. It is to quote the OT directly but not consult the NT for interpretation.
In my view of things, Christocentricity, not Israelcentricity, is spiritual and mature.
"Whatever God promised to the fathers, he has fulfilled by resurrecting Christ from the dead." Acts 13:36.
You see, you have a MO that you are not aware of. It is to quote the OT directly but not consult the NT for interpretation.
In my view of things, Christocentricity, not Israelcentricity, is spiritual and mature.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The new covenant in Christ's blood was for the sins of all mankind who would believe. Mt 27.
The LORD God will fulfill all the covenants He made with the nation of Israel, not for their sake, but to demonstrate to mankind, that He is trustworthy, He keeps His promises, He does not lie, He is faithful..............and we are not. The end game? For His glory, His namesake.
“But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.” Ez. 36:21-34 KJV
Read it:
Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,
“And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.” Ez. 37:21-22 KJV
“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.” Ez. 39:25-29 KJV
“And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers……Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.” Jer. 33:19-21 KJV, 25-26 KJV
“Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance. .. And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.” Psalms 106:4,5 KJV, 45-48 KJV
Read it:"that I may glory....thy holy name.."
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.” Is. 51:4 KJV
“And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.” Micah 4:7 KJV
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mt. 21:43 KJV
“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Luke 12:32
“But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.” Ez. 36:21-34 KJV
Read it:
Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,
“And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.” Ez. 37:21-22 KJV
“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.” Ez. 39:25-29 KJV
“And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers……Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.” Jer. 33:19-21 KJV, 25-26 KJV
“Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance. .. And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.” Psalms 106:4,5 KJV, 45-48 KJV
Read it:"that I may glory....thy holy name.."
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.” Is. 51:4 KJV
“And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.” Micah 4:7 KJV
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mt. 21:43 KJV
“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Luke 12:32
whitestone
Well-known member
we should keep an eschatology scorecard,,
The Jew believes Jesus was not the Messiah and that the real Messiah is still to come,which means he is the next event to happen,when the man of sin comes they will receive him who comes in his own name and fulfill the scripture...
The preterits reason that all has been fulfilled and that the man of sin has already came so when the remainder of event's unfold they will be the end when Jesus comes and hence will acknowledge him as God and Christ,whether he is the false Messiah the Jew awaits or not...
Then there are the dispy,pre-mills and the next event in their eschatology is the return of an Israel whether it be an image or not is another subject,but at least they do see unfinished words spoken to Jacob...
The Jew believes Jesus was not the Messiah and that the real Messiah is still to come,which means he is the next event to happen,when the man of sin comes they will receive him who comes in his own name and fulfill the scripture...
The preterits reason that all has been fulfilled and that the man of sin has already came so when the remainder of event's unfold they will be the end when Jesus comes and hence will acknowledge him as God and Christ,whether he is the false Messiah the Jew awaits or not...
Then there are the dispy,pre-mills and the next event in their eschatology is the return of an Israel whether it be an image or not is another subject,but at least they do see unfinished words spoken to Jacob...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then how do you explain that the Apostle Paul spoke of a salvation of all of Israel many years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus?:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.
The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.
The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.
it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!
HisServant
New member
You remind me of the Jews who were blind to the fact that Jesus was their Messiah and he fulfilled all the prophesies about himself.
Much in the same way, you are using the same measuring stick that they did... and you are blinded in much the same way.
To the Jews they still believe that God owes them something that they are blind to the fact that Jesus fulfilled.
From your world view it appears that you do not believe that God fulfilled all the promises in Jesus so you need to look somewhere else and in your case into the future for your answers.
In the end, you two deserve each other because you are both blinded and no amount of reasoning will change your view... because you have enslaved yourself to the teachings of mad men.
In the end, you have jumped in bed with the Jews and are complicit with the murder of so many innocents... all in the name of trying to self fulfill your eschatology.
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Romans 9: 21
The potter having power over the clay refers to Jeremiah 18: 1-6 and especially to Jeremiah 18: 4-6, "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
The vessel that was marred in the hand of the potter is the vessel of dishonor, while the vessel, the pot, the potter made again out of the same lump which seemed good to the potter is the vessel of honor of Romans 9: 21.
The vessel of dishonor of Romans 9: 21 is the part of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 9: 6, of the bloodline from Abraham, which was now not Israel. This is a difficult way of saying what Paul says in Romans 11: 5, that there is a remnant according to the election of grace. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace to continue as Israel, but as Israel born again (John 3: 1-7) in Jesus Christ. And in Romans 11: 7 Paul writes "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Israel in Romans 11: 7 is Old Covenant Israel. Paul is not saying in Romans 11: 7 what that remnant of Old Covenant Israel which obtained election is called. He gives that Israel a name in Galatians 6: 16, the Israel of God, different from Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18).
The Israel of God, the elect, the Body of Christ, is Old Covenant Israel remade as shown in Romans 9:
21 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter. The remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." And also in Isaiah 29: 16 the remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in saying "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"
This is all a little subtle. But it is saying that Old Covenant Israel was remade, and Israel, the people of God, was begun again in the remnant of Old Covenant Israel of Romans 11; 5. There are two covenants, but they do not exist side by side. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
An important part of the falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) involves a refusal to accept and understand the remaking of Old Covenant Israel into the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.
The potter having power over the clay refers to Jeremiah 18: 1-6 and especially to Jeremiah 18: 4-6, "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
The vessel that was marred in the hand of the potter is the vessel of dishonor, while the vessel, the pot, the potter made again out of the same lump which seemed good to the potter is the vessel of honor of Romans 9: 21.
The vessel of dishonor of Romans 9: 21 is the part of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 9: 6, of the bloodline from Abraham, which was now not Israel. This is a difficult way of saying what Paul says in Romans 11: 5, that there is a remnant according to the election of grace. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace to continue as Israel, but as Israel born again (John 3: 1-7) in Jesus Christ. And in Romans 11: 7 Paul writes "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Israel in Romans 11: 7 is Old Covenant Israel. Paul is not saying in Romans 11: 7 what that remnant of Old Covenant Israel which obtained election is called. He gives that Israel a name in Galatians 6: 16, the Israel of God, different from Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18).
The Israel of God, the elect, the Body of Christ, is Old Covenant Israel remade as shown in Romans 9:
21 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter. The remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." And also in Isaiah 29: 16 the remaking of Old Covenant Israel is commented on in saying "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"
This is all a little subtle. But it is saying that Old Covenant Israel was remade, and Israel, the people of God, was begun again in the remnant of Old Covenant Israel of Romans 11; 5. There are two covenants, but they do not exist side by side. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
An important part of the falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) involves a refusal to accept and understand the remaking of Old Covenant Israel into the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
You're not talking to a jerk, you know.
I am pleased, fella, that you're back, not molly coddling, anymore. Did you go to that big city, near you, grab yourself a corner room, at the "Y," cook a little chili, and have a few shots of "hard cider," while takin' a picture, at the picture show, for the weekend?
Is dispensationalism a way of understanding Biblical prophecy or eschatology assumed to be about events following even what many identify as the destruction of Israel and the temple in Jerusalem about 70 AD?
Has all been fulfilled in Jesus and yet we look forward to His return?
Is Israel spoken of in Biblical prophecy beyond say the 70 AD time period?
Has all been fulfilled in Jesus and yet we look forward to His return?
Is Israel spoken of in Biblical prophecy beyond say the 70 AD time period?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":
Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:
There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.
The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.
The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.
it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).
Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.
The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.
The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.
it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!
Why not say the new covenant came about 2000 years ago?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Isn't it obvious that the promise made to the house of Israel and to the house of Israel at Jeremiah 31:34 has not yet been fulfilled?
Of course you just IGNORED those facts.
No, I believe either it came or it did not. And I believe it came.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you believe that at one time all those in the house of Israel and in the house of Jadah had their sins forgiven.
When do you say that happened?
Sins were forgiven by (in accordance with) the new covenant pertaining to the life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus, and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5 NASB.
Acts 3:19 NASB - 19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
To be consistent with what Paul says in Romans 2: 28-29, in Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 5, 7, 17-20, in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 and Galatians 4: 22-26 all Israel shall be saved in Romans 11: 26 is all who are the elect of God, since only all the elect of God could be said to be saved. For all Old Covenant Israel as a house to be saved in the future, again would contradict what Paul says in Romans 11: 7, 17-20. Romans 11: 25 in saying blindness has happened to a part of Old Covenant Israel Paul is saying the same thing he said in Romans 11: 7, that those of Old Covenant Israel who were not the remnant were blinded.
"And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all world for a witness unto all nations (ethnos) and then shall the end come." Matthew 24; 14
In Romans 11: 25 it says hardness in part has happened to Israel until (achris) the fullness of the ethnos (nations, peoples, Gentiles) be come in. When the fullness of the ethnos (people, nations Gentiles) be come in, is reached, that is the end. Why translate ethnos here as Gentiles instead of nations or peoples?
Romans 11: 25-26 is difficult to interpret. But if you interpret it by other relevant scripture, instead of by a tradition of men, it is not saying that sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved as a house, but that all who are the elect of God will be saved, and all who are the elect of God are Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel, according to the texts of Paul listed above.
"And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all world for a witness unto all nations (ethnos) and then shall the end come." Matthew 24; 14
In Romans 11: 25 it says hardness in part has happened to Israel until (achris) the fullness of the ethnos (nations, peoples, Gentiles) be come in. When the fullness of the ethnos (people, nations Gentiles) be come in, is reached, that is the end. Why translate ethnos here as Gentiles instead of nations or peoples?
Romans 11: 25-26 is difficult to interpret. But if you interpret it by other relevant scripture, instead of by a tradition of men, it is not saying that sometime in the future all Old Covenant Israel will be saved as a house, but that all who are the elect of God will be saved, and all who are the elect of God are Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel, according to the texts of Paul listed above.
Israel in the Old Covenant was the same nation as Israel is now (time of Christ but there is Israel in the land now), even as the new covenant came 2000 years ago. If not, what changed or what has changed? Israel was in the land during the time of Christ. Israel was still in the land after the new covenant in Jesus had come, even as Jesus appeared to many following His resurrection, and ascended to the right hand of God after which we see the Spirit of God poured out on Jews and later on Gentiles as well.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Unt,
There is pretty good evidence that almost no one today in israel knows their tribal descendency. There are also only about 8% evangelicals. About the same % are orthodox but the majority are agnostic or NYC liberals.
It is entirely possible that the orthodox will resurrect Judaism enough to practice the whole worship system again, which would bring us back to the eve of the New Testament period, right?
So I don't see very much the same. Northwye is quite right that 11:26's "all" can't be the ethnos; it is the "Israel" (or remnant, or elect, or Abraham' seed) Paul has been referring to since ch 2, again in ch 9. In 11, granted, there are several contrasts between ethnos Israel and the nations, but anytime you limit a group that's moving through history and say at one future moment that "all" of it will be saved, you have actually qualified that "all" quite a bit.
Then, look carefully at how Isiaiah is quoted. It is all current. Those things are fulfilled for Paul: the Redeemer came, the sin as debt is taken away, the new covenant is operating. 11:30 solidifies with God only doing things through and upon Christ, whether in mercy or wrath. The same standard for all manking.
There is pretty good evidence that almost no one today in israel knows their tribal descendency. There are also only about 8% evangelicals. About the same % are orthodox but the majority are agnostic or NYC liberals.
It is entirely possible that the orthodox will resurrect Judaism enough to practice the whole worship system again, which would bring us back to the eve of the New Testament period, right?
So I don't see very much the same. Northwye is quite right that 11:26's "all" can't be the ethnos; it is the "Israel" (or remnant, or elect, or Abraham' seed) Paul has been referring to since ch 2, again in ch 9. In 11, granted, there are several contrasts between ethnos Israel and the nations, but anytime you limit a group that's moving through history and say at one future moment that "all" of it will be saved, you have actually qualified that "all" quite a bit.
Then, look carefully at how Isiaiah is quoted. It is all current. Those things are fulfilled for Paul: the Redeemer came, the sin as debt is taken away, the new covenant is operating. 11:30 solidifies with God only doing things through and upon Christ, whether in mercy or wrath. The same standard for all manking.