The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel

[northwye]

The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel

Why would people who claim to be Christians - the dispensationalists - make such an issue about Old Covenant Israel somehow remaining now as the chosen people of God? What is the reason, the motivation, for such a strong focus upon Old Covenant israel?

Should not our focus be more upon having Christ in us? ""My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," Galatians 4: 19

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"Philippians2: 5

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"Colossians 1: 26-17

But no, the dispensationalists are focused on Old Covenant Israel.

John Hagee has made John 4: 22 stand out in his promotion of Christian Zionism, which is a more extreme form of dispensationalism. The text says "...we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Salvation is from Jesus Christ, not from men. What Christ means in John 4: 22 is that those of Old Covenant Israel, of the bloodline from Abraham, were first made aware of salvation and salvation was first offered to them when Christ appeared ("I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.") Matthew 15: 24 Genesis 49: 18 says " I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

The Jews do not possess salvation and are able to give it to those who are not Jews. The rabbis do teach that "he" in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus Christ but the people of Old Covenant Israel, or now of Talmudic Judaism.

And having been taught that the people of Old Covenant Israel are now the chosen people of God, the followers of dispensationalism believe that the promises to Abraham in Genesis 17: 4-11 apply literally, and only to the physical bloodline from Abraham through Issac and Jacob, and these promises apply forever. For dispensationalists those in Talmudic Judaism are of the bloodline and therefore are the chosen people.

Dispensationalists appear not to understand and/or accept what Paul says in Galatians 3: 16, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds,as of many,; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Then Paul goes on in Galatians 3: 26-29 to say ""For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. "27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The more literalist minded dispensationalists do not understand this, that Paul is saying that the promise to Abraham in Genesis 17 about the seed of Abraham being fruitful, as God said to him in Genesis 17: 2, "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly." In Verse 4 God says he will make Abraham a father of man nations, or of many peoples. The promise began with the physical seed of Abraham, but the ultimate promise was that Abraham's spiritual seed would be exceedingly large, or that many would become his spiritual seed through Christ Jesus. This is the way Abraham becomes the spiritual father of many peoples.

Paul does not say in an explicit way - as a high school textbook might be explicit in teaching - that in Christ the physical seed from Abraham became the spiritual seed from Abraham, which means that no one now is a member of the chosen people of God by virtue of his physical DNA from Abraham.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19: 5-6

Peter quoted parts of Exodus 19: 5-6 in I Peter 2: 9, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

In I Peter 2: 9 the Christians became the chosen people - chosen generation - and a kingdom of priests, a holy nation of holy people a peculiar treasure.

In Hebrews 10: 9 it says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." The Old Covenant was taken away so that Christ could establish the New Covenant. You cannot have the Old Covenant still being in place when the New Covenant has been established. "The glory of this latter house shall be greater that of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..." Haggai 2: 9

 

[Interplanner]

Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all. Some of them don't know that Acts 13 has a sermon. Most do not know or accept what it is saying. When you start shifting the promises to David over to Christ, and Isaiah validates that (Is 55 quoted in Acts 13) and saying that the promises are all completed, it really changes how you use the OT.

One suggestion for you: the Christ in you of Colossians is collective and objective. He means Messiah is now known among you Gentiles. He is not referring to the subjective Christ inside one individual believer. See for yourself, the Greek is plural. Paul is thrilled to know that the OT theme of the nations being reached and believing (Is 49:6) is coming true through him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Dispensationalist Focus Upon Old Covenant Israel

Why would people who claim to be Christians - the dispensationalists - make such an issue about Old Covenant Israel somehow remaining now as the chosen people of God?

The dispensationalists do not assert that old Covenant Israel is "now" the chosen people of God.

Why would people who claim to be Christians make false claims against dispensationalists?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all.

Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
he may not have said it but the understanding is that you may not think they are the people of God now due to 2P2P and that a time is coming when the Israel program goes back into effect.

the problem with this position is that it is dealing with whole groups at a time. The NT does not. It even says that is a defect of Judaism itself which voided and replaced the promised Gospel, Gal 3:17. The NT only deals with individuals who believe. The message is transcultural; you can believe no matter what class, culture or group you are in.

 

[Interplanner]

Not only do Dispensationalists understand what the NT is saying about the OT but we actually believe what is being said. Here Paul speaks of the fact that "all Israel will be saved":

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Here Paul is referring to the following prophecy which speaks of ALL those of the house of Israel and those of the house of Judah having their sins forgiven:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

There has never been a time when "all" of those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

The Dispensationalists believe that the LORD will honor His promise which He made to the houses of Israel and Judah so this prophecy will be fulfilled in the future.

The preterists have no place for the fulfillment of the LORD's promise in their eschatology so according to them the LORD makes promisres and then refuses to fulfill his promise.

it is beyond me how some of those who claim to be Christians can have a theology where the LORD makes promises and then refuses to honor those promises!

They are said to be fulfilled in Christ, Jerry. The "all" Israel he is referring to so successfully is the one that is in Christ.

Otherwise on Rom 11:
*all can't be all because it just got qualified by being future
*saved (per the quote from Isaiah) = justified from sins. it is not a prophesied restoration of the theocracy and all the worship accoutrements
*the new covenant is in effect now, in Christ, Mt 26, 2 Cor 3-5.

I don't find you familiar or accepting of these materials.

Granted, Judaism today may rebuild everything, but it just takes us all back to the eve of the arrival of Christ, and we start all over again trying to explain to them what "fulfilled" means.

 

[Interplanner]

The word of God has not failed, Jerry. All the OT promises that the Gospel would go to the nations, and involving as many Jews as would be willing, has come true.

 

[northwye]

The problem with saying that the Greek word umin, meaning you, second person plural, in Colossians 1: 27 refers only to the group and not to individuals in the group is that this is a logical impossibility, and - there are several other texts where Paul refers to Christ in you.

The second person plural of umin means Christ is in "you all," each individual of a group which has Christ in its individuals.

The Old English word Ye is second person plural, and might have been used for umin in Colossians 1: 27. Using Ye would indicate that Christ is in a group, but that group is made up only of the elect of God.

"And if Christ be in you (umin), the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8: 10

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you (umin)," Galatians 4: 19

"Let this mind be in you (umin), which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5

And I Corinthians 3: 6 supports the teaching that Christ can be in you. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

The churches tend to avoid the teaching that Christ can be in you, and focus elsewhere on texts about salvation. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" of Romans 10: 13 is liked more in the churches. Calling on the name of the Lord to be saved might seem more like something a person can do, while Christ being formed in you is something Christ decides to do.

And Christ in you fits in more with John 10: 10, " I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Christ brings spiritual life to you when he is in you, and in a time of the falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) that spiritual life is vital.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JerryS,
he may not have said it but the understanding is that you may not think they are the people of God now due to 2P2P and that a time is coming when the Israel program goes back into effect.

the problem with this position is that it is dealing with whole groups at a time. The NT does not. It even says that is a defect of Judaism itself which voided and replaced the promised Gospel, Gal 3:17. The NT only deals with individuals who believe. The message is transcultural; you can believe no matter what class, culture or group you are in.

You cannot write in a clear matter and it is practically impossible to understand anything which you say.

I cannot understand your mumble jumble, much less respond to it!

The word of God has not failed, Jerry. All the OT promises that the Gospel would go to the nations, and involving as many Jews as would be willing, has come true.

no, all of the OT prophecies have not been fulfilled.

There has never been a time when ALL those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah have had their sins forgiven.

If you think that Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The problem with saying that the Greek word umin, meaning you, second person plural, in Colossians 1: 27 refers only to the group and not to individuals in the group is that this is a logical impossibility, and - there are several other texts where Paul refers to Christ in you.

So? That does not rule out the idea that sometime in the future the Israelites will be a special people to the Lord, above all people who are on the face of the earth.

And this unfulfilled prophecy speaks of that time:

"And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

You preterists are so ignorant of the prophecies found in the OT that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with any of you.

 

[Interplanner]

Jerry,
I guess you've missed a few days. 2P2P is the standard D'ist doctrine (Ryrie's book, most of DTS) that says the bible is about 2 peoples of God, 2 programs.
They never overlap, they never meet, they have two realms of bliss (heaven vs Israel on earth), ad nauseum. Two ways of being saved, two different things being saved means, ad nauseum.

Nothing like Eph 2B-3A.

The reason you can't understand me generally is you don't read the OT the way the NT reads it. It's that simple of a problem.

re the word of God not failing, I was proving it the way Paul did. The promises were never going to the whole nation. That's why the terms 'sperma' and 'sarkos' get used in Rom 9A. The promised seed of Abraham are people who believe in Christ, who, after all, is the Seed that was being referred to, Gal 3:16.

The 'sarkos' were born the ordinary way, and the promises don't go to them.

The main thing to do is read the one official sample apostle's sermon out on the mission field, Acts 13, preached in a synagogue to try to get Jews to join the true mission. All the things promised to the fathers are fulfilled in the resurrection. It is right in print. All the promises to David were shifted to Christ for this mission. That is validated by Is 55.

I don't take "Jerry's" interp of Jer 31 when there is so much comment on it in Hebrews and 2 Cor 3-5. No can do.

 

[Danoh]

Jerry,
I guess you've missed a few days. 2P2P is the standard D'ist doctrine (Ryrie's book, most of DTS) that says the bible is about 2 peoples of God, 2 programs.
They never overlap, they never meet, they have two realms of bliss (heaven vs Israel on earth), ad nauseum. Two ways of being saved, two different things being saved means, ad nauseum.

I don't necessarily hold to the some of the above as to who, what, when, where, why, and how in the same way that Jerry does.

Still, it is obvious, Interplanner, that in your wisdom in your own conceit out of your willful ignorance of Dispensationalism, in general, you have ended up spreading lies and slander about it.

They do not overlap? The twain shall never meet? Two ways of being saved?

What; did you roll up some pages out of Stott and smoke them; their ink appears to have caused some serious brain damage there.

 

[Zeke]

Good thoughts, Northwye, they don't generally look at what the NT is saying about the OT at all. Some of them don't know that Acts 13 has a sermon. Most do not know or accept what it is saying. When you start shifting the promises to David over to Christ, and Isaiah validates that (Is 55 quoted in Acts 13) and saying that the promises are all completed, it really changes how you use the OT.

One suggestion for you: the Christ in you of Colossians is collective and objective. He means Messiah is now known among you Gentiles. He is not referring to the subjective Christ inside one individual believer. See for yourself, the Greek is plural. Paul is thrilled to know that the OT theme of the nations being reached and believing (Is 49:6) is coming true through him.

Traditional programed assumption, the temple or cocoon of the spirit is the tabernacle of flesh Matt 11:11, Galatians 4:24, that incubates the second born represented by Jesus Galatians 4:26, which Paul mentions is the abode of the Divine Seed 1Cor 3:16, like the prodigals return home after being imprisoned in a tomb of flesh, same Motif as Jonah ect........

 

[Interplanner]

I grew up in it, Danoh, through age 22. Nice try.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The promises were never going to the whole nation.

You are incapable of understanding what is written at Jeremiah31:31-34. You have a bad case of being willfully ignorant!

Do not both the house of Israel and the house of Judah make up the whole nation?

And did you not read verse 34 where it makes it plain that all of those from both houses will have their sins forgiven?

Of course that is what is said in that passage.

Despite that you will yourself to be ignorant and you say that "the promises were never going to the whole nation."

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you about these things because your spiritual I.Q. is practically nonexistent.

 

[Interplanner]

No, it is NT based. You refuse to see how the NT uses the OT. Please go see today's great example about the house of prayer. It's always good to have one clear, sharp-edged example. You'll never skip the NT period and go flinging off to the distant future again.

Jer 23-33 in particular is interp'd extensively in Hebrews and in 2 Cor 3-5. Your thoughts are considered way after all that is clear and solidified. That's why I'm not "intelligent."

 

[Tambora]

Romans 11 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your thoughts are considered way after all that is clear and solidified.

As usual what you say makes no sense at all.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Dispensationalist focus upon Old Covenant Israel

The Dispensationalist focus upon Old Covenant Israel

How about the New Covenant, whom was it established with not with the Jews? Prophet Jeremiah says that the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Not including Christians or Gentiles in general. Unless they express the desire to join, it must be according to Isa. 56:1-8. Why then enhance Old Covenant Israel when also the New Covenant is with Israel? Kind a hard to understand Christians.

 

[whitestone]

How about the New Covenant, whom was it established with not with the Jews? Prophet Jeremiah says that the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Not including Christians or Gentiles in general. Unless they express the desire to join, it must be according to Isa. 56:1-8. Why then enhance Old Covenant Israel when also the New Covenant is with Israel? Kind a hard to understand Christians.

At first it is very difficult to follow their eschatology,that is among these they all set the pieces in different orders of fulfillment. If though you still can calculate the grain offering and determine where to place an extra month,then you will still calculate it.

Mine own self I find drawn to the curiosity of their ambitions that is,mine own house is of Naarden though you may recognize it,it is as an riddle to them that naar is http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5288.htm and den http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1818.htm which is the house of Naarden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naarden and that it is then an necessity for me to exact the things written of mine own house,,,