ECT The Definition of Musterion and why the Gospel was not a Mystery

intojoy

intojoy

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intojoy said:
Still not totally clear but I think you're saying that gentile salvation thru Israel's priestly economy was not a mystery but that Gentiles salvation thru the fallen state of Israel was a mystery?


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Actually I know that's what you're saying. I'm just being nice.

Here's some objections to that view.

First, Israel as a nation was never faithful under Moses, Saul, not under David and not under Solomon and it went down hill from there.
Therefore gentile salvation was not really very prevalent. As a matter of fact we can probably name the number of Gentiles saved thru the BC Jewish priesthood with two hands. This hardly fulfills

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
??Genesis? ?22:18? ?ASV??

(Seed, singular, refers to Messiah and not the priesthood)

Secondly, it was specifically revealed here that it would be the Messiah's work of not only saving Israel but Gentiles as well by completing the Messiah's first mission in its totality. That mission included an offer of the Messianic Kingdom, the Jewish rejection, the kingdom moving into mystery form and then the beginning of the the church age which you place somewhere after Acts 2 (where I Beloit began).

I can see how you can think Paul began the gospel and church, I can see why you observed that the gospel was hidden to the disciples and everyone else before the cross but I cannot accept the gospel as a musterion because the work of the the Messiah taken in totality by studying every Old Testament passage and reference to Messiah shows that He would die for the sins of all people first for Israel and then for the nations.




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intojoy

intojoy

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Unless of course we redefine a musterion. But really there is no need. There are arguments to be made for a mad position. Just calling the gospel one of Paul's ministering of his musterions is not one of them.


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intojoy

intojoy

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Also, arguing with Danslow and other replacement theologians is not validating MAD for me at all. Just because you madsters accurately criticize his antisemitic doctrines doesn't mean that everything else you believe is right.
There's a lot of good and helpful things that madders have to say. But there are very good things that the Calvinist's say as well and not all they teach is on the straight and narrow either.

The main thing is that we can say we are free and no longer guilty, we no longer owe a debt to God and we can stand before him as righteous human beings and follow Him where He leads us to go, praise Him.


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I

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intojoy said:
Actually I know that's what you're saying. I'm just being nice.

Here's some objections to that view.

First, Israel as a nation was never faithful under Moses, Saul, not under David and not under Solomon and it went down hill from there.
Therefore gentile salvation was not really very prevalent. As a matter of fact we can probably name the number of Gentiles saved thru the BC Jewish priesthood with two hands. This hardly fulfills

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
??Genesis? ?22:18? ?ASV??

(Seed, singular, refers to Messiah and not the priesthood)

Secondly, it was specifically revealed here that it would be the Messiah's work of not only saving Israel but Gentiles as well by completing the Messiah's first mission in its totality. That mission included an offer of the Messianic Kingdom, the Jewish rejection, the kingdom moving into mystery form and then the beginning of the the church age which you place somewhere after Acts 2 (where I Beloit began).

I can see how you can think Paul began the gospel and church, I can see why you observed that the gospel was hidden to the disciples and everyone else before the cross but I cannot accept the gospel as a musterion because the work of the the Messiah taken in totality by studying every Old Testament passage and reference to Messiah shows that He would die for the sins of all people first for Israel and then for the nations.




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Some pretty good summaries here, but the kingdom never moved into mystery form. In comparison with the zealots, it was always in mystery form; it was never civic, or brick and mortar, or monarchical.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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Danoh said:
Rubbish on your often insolent part in your ignorance - I have often pointed people both on here and away from here to 1 Cor. 15:1-4 - especially verses 3 and 4.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

But yours is par for the course for one who has been proving for some time that hers is nothing more than heir-er read into one thing or another by her:chuckle:
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Will you define mystery of Christ and mystery of the gospel for us?
 
intojoy

intojoy

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musterion said:
Quit playing dumb.
Click to expand...

intojoy said:
Still not totally clear but I think you're saying that gentile salvation thru Israel's priestly economy was not a mystery but that Gentiles salvation thru the fallen state of Israel was a mystery?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Click to expand...

Actually I know that's what you're saying. I'm just being nice.

Here's some objections to that view.

First, Israel as a nation was never faithful under Moses, Saul, not under David and not under Solomon and it went down hill from there.
Therefore gentile salvation was not really very prevalent. As a matter of fact we can probably name the number of Gentiles saved thru the BC Jewish priesthood with two hands. This hardly fulfills

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
??Genesis? ?22:18? ?ASV??

(Seed, singular, refers to Messiah and not the priesthood)

Secondly, it was specifically revealed here that it would be the Messiah's work of not only saving Israel but Gentiles as well by completing the Messiah's first mission in its totality. That mission included an offer of the Messianic Kingdom, the Jewish rejection, the kingdom moving into mystery form and then the beginning of the the church age which you place somewhere after Acts 2 (where I Beloit began).

I can see how you can think Paul began the gospel and church, I can see why you observed that the gospel was hidden to the disciples and everyone else before the cross but I cannot accept the gospel as a musterion because the work of the the Messiah taken in totality by studying every Old Testament passage and reference to Messiah shows that He would die for the sins of all people first for Israel and then for the nations.




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musterion

musterion

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Israel's faithlessness isn't the point. God's intended priestly purpose for them is the point, and it will yet take place...after they have repented, kneeled and embraced their Messiah.
 
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Danoh

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SaulToPaul said:
Will you define mystery of Christ and mystery of the gospel for us?
Click to expand...

I already have: on here; in the past to you; to no avail.

Just as I have just now posted a long post to Jerry on some things that will only fall on eyes and ears long set in a faulty path to understanding one thing or another.

You...want it both ways, bro, and yet do not even see you do.

You want an answer you fail to examine from other than from within your approach...

And you insist on asserting answering you again is not forth coming because I supposedly have no answer.

The reality being that having given you an answer has only continued to prove you are already married to your own.

You're proud, bro.

Nothing personal, bro...it is what it is.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Danoh said:
I already have: on here; in the past to you; to no avail.

Just as I have just now posted a long post to Jerry on some things that will only fall on eyes and ears long set in a faulty path to understanding one thing or another.

You...want it both ways, bro, and yet do not even see you do.

You want an answer you fail to examine from other than from within your approach...

And you insist on asserting answering you again is not forth coming because I supposedly have no answer.

The reality being that having given you an answer has only continued to prove you are already married to your own.

You're proud, bro.

Nothing personal, bro...it is what it is.
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Define them again, in short statements. I will bookmark it for future reference.
 
I

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musterion said:
Israel's faithlessness isn't the point. God's intended priestly purpose for them is the point, and it will yet take place...after they have repented, kneeled and embraced their Messiah.
Click to expand...




Who is "they"? By the time you think "they" will do it, it will be a different "they" than the ones now. Does that matter? Wouldn't it be significant only if the ones who were "they" back then in the NT did so?

Or do you mean the Hassidim?
 
musterion

musterion

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Interplanner said:
Who is "they"? By the time you think "they" will do it, it will be a different "they" than the ones now. Does that matter? Wouldn't it be significant only if the ones who were "they" back then in the NT did so?
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Luke 3:8

I will not pretend to know when, how or with whom God is going to accomplish it. That He will, is certain.
 
I

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musterion said:
Luke 3:8

I will not pretend to know when, how or with whom God is going to accomplish it. That He will, is certain.
Click to expand...




But you do pretend, that's what is annoying.

The stones were Gentiles, later, because children of Abraham are those who have faith.

So he did accomplish it, because he does not operate on racial lines. Un-making that mistake is one of the things the NT is all about. The NT un-makes what Judaism turned the OT into. So when we go to read Paul or Hebrews we learn what was there all along.
 
john w

john w

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Interplanner said:
Then maybe its time to go back to Gal 3:17 and decide who voided and changed the Promise... It is one of those key places where we know Paul is talking about intertestament Judaism, because no one in the canon of the OT made such changes.
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intertestament Judaism,


Got it.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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The Definition of Musterion and why the Gospel was not a Mystery

musterion said:
Israel's faithlessness isn't the point. God's intended priestly purpose for them is the point, and it will yet take place...after they have repented, kneeled and embraced their Messiah.
Click to expand...

That to me is very inconsistent.

Gentiles are being saved today by the work of the Servant of Jehovah. Specifically the work of the cross.

The OT passages that speak of gentile salvation are not connected to the Priesthood of Moses nor are they connected to the nation of Israel during the kingdom. The passages speaking to and about gentile salvation are about the work of Messiah on the cross.

Israel will be representatives of Jehovah in the kingdom as a witness to the nations of the faithfulness of God to keep His word and they will point to that keeping of His word.

Salvation of the Gentiles in the kingdom will be by accepting Messiah.

The scripture is clear STP, the salvation of Gentiles thru the cross is not a musterion, it was revealed specifically that by Messiah's death, burial and resurrection that Gentiles would be saved - not that Gentiles would be saved by the priestly system of the Jews.


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