Yes you can't call the gospel a musterion because it was already revealed.
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ECT The Definition of Musterion and why the Gospel was not a Mystery
- Thread starter intojoy
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Yes you can't call the gospel a musterion because it was already revealed.
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You're way off base joy boy
Lol. I don't need to argue this anymore. I'm satisfied with my victory
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, indeed, God kept it a secret since the world began until it was revealed to the apostle Paul ( and others)
If the princes of this world had known it, they never would have crucified the lord of glory.
We are the recipients of God's greatest blessings to date.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It was only a mystery to Judaism, seeing things (or not!) in its veiled condition. It is perfectly clear from the OT.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Now, once it has been revealed.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Perfectly clear from the OT means to answer Jerry (and anyone else with his unfinished business) because he has never answered whether Israel would know from the OT--Ps 22, Is 53, Dan 9--if Christ was to suffer.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Of course they did not know, scripture tells us that they did not know.
Is God powerful enough to write it down, and keep it hidden until he's ready to reveal it?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Define the mystery of Christ, and mystery of the gospel for us.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nope.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I try, saint john.
But apparently I did not use the Danohianic Principle, as he did not approve of said post.
Paderick Shame,
13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13
This passage teaches
Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.
Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.
Messiah's first coming would be rejected.
Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.
Messiah would be executed.
Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
Messiah would be resurrected.
All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.
Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.
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Why Gentile salvation was not a musterion:
1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6
This passage teaches
Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit
Messiah would conduct Himself in meekness and gentleness
Although Messiahs mission would appear to end in failure it would in fact be a complete success. The success of His ministry actually required His death.
Messiah's mission includes Gentile salvation.
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1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6
This passage teaches
Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit
Messiah would conduct Himself in meekness and gentleness
Although Messiahs mission would appear to end in failure it would in fact be a complete success. The success of His ministry actually required His death.
Messiah's mission includes Gentile salvation.
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Through the rise of Israel, Gentile salvation is indeed prophesied.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Compare A:
to B:
So, just to be clear, you're saying that the definition in NT Greek is completely different than it was for Classical Greek?
Jarrod
to B:
So, just to be clear, you're saying that the definition in NT Greek is completely different than it was for Classical Greek?
Jarrod
From reading Fruchtenbaum he says that the Classical Greek definition is not what Paul means by his usage of what he termed the musterions. Because the musterions Paul points to are totally unheard of in the past. Like the rapture, like the indwelling of Christ into every believer, the Gentiles and Jews blended into one body in Christ, etc. I'm not by any means an expert on the subject. However, according to frucht believers can gauge their spiritual maturity on how well they understand the mysteries of the NT. So when I see some people mixing up what I've learned and am trying to learn I'm compelled to look into them especially the use by Jerry of one of Paul's musterions to be the gospel of salvation.
Not trying to be contentious. Although you can read from my posts that I love to tease.
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Wick Stick
Well-known member
I'm just trying to get a handle on what you're saying. I think I disagree, but I wanted to make sure I understand you before I go off arguing against something that maybe isn't even what you're talking about.
I don't know Fruchtenbaum, but if he says that musterion has a different meaning for Paul that it does for Plato, then I disagree with him.
The Greeks engaged in mystery schools, and that didn't mean that they taught things that nobody ever knew before. That doesn't even make sense. It meant that the schools teachings were hidden (mysterious) to the people who weren't in the school. It's the opposite of open source.
Likewise, then, early Christians had teachings which they only taught to those who were already mature in Christ. Notice 1Corinthians 2:6-7. This is just one of many times in Paul's writings where he seems to stop himself and say, "hey, there's more that I want to share here, but I can't until you grow up!"
Mysteries aren't things nobody ever knew before, they're secrets a few people knew, and kept hidden, just as the often quoted Colossians 1:26 says.
I don't know Fruchtenbaum, but if he says that musterion has a different meaning for Paul that it does for Plato, then I disagree with him.
The Greeks engaged in mystery schools, and that didn't mean that they taught things that nobody ever knew before. That doesn't even make sense. It meant that the schools teachings were hidden (mysterious) to the people who weren't in the school. It's the opposite of open source.
Likewise, then, early Christians had teachings which they only taught to those who were already mature in Christ. Notice 1Corinthians 2:6-7. This is just one of many times in Paul's writings where he seems to stop himself and say, "hey, there's more that I want to share here, but I can't until you grow up!"
Mysteries aren't things nobody ever knew before, they're secrets a few people knew, and kept hidden, just as the often quoted Colossians 1:26 says.
It is important to study and learn the entire counsel of the Word of God. That must only be done by using a strict literal hermeneutic that includes taking relevant passages into context in order to understand what has been declared.
YOUR PROOFTEXT IS YOUR PRETEXT.NO CONTEXTUAL RELEVANCE HERE. NO CONNECTING RELATIONSHIP.
The problem is your negative proof texting void of exegesis in context.As well, we must formulate a chronology based on all the relevant verses.Look at all relevant verses without a wrong paradigm.. Classic proof texting out of context. You are misunderstanding/misrepresenting their points. If you quote other sections, it will not support your jumping to conclusions.It is a logical fallacy to think majority is always right, but it is also not always wrong.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In the following passage Paul speaks of the gospel according to the revelation of the mystery:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).
Of course those who continue to cling to the fiction that only one gospel was preached during the Acts period must insist that it wasn't hidden at all!
You shouldn't pay any attention to those like Arnold who are now denying the traditional dispensationalist's teaching of the Church parenthesis! It will not be long until Arnold joins hands with the progressive dispensationalists who say that the Lord Jesus is now sitting on the throne of David!