ECT The Cross Has Made You Flawless

D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
Because perfectionism is dangerous.
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Depends on one's criteria.

Take the perception of "failure," for example.

If it is perceived as feedback, it "is made perfect" - because feedback; an ever important essential to learning, growing, etc., is then ever present.

When failure is perceived as feedback it is then perfect - it is then ever able to point you to that which is "lacking on your part."
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
the Hebrews usage of "perfected" is in a Levitical sense; it means to be justified from one's sins. It does not mean perfect performance, which is plain from all the contexts of Hebrews.
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The discipline of Heb 12:5-12 IS obviously performance because we are chastised for it. Are we chastised, and every legitimate son is chastised, for being righteous and perfect???

Chapter 12 MUST reconcile with Chapter 10, not be ignored. Is your theology deficient to do this?
 
Nick M

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
revpete said:
The second one matters, not to God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ but because of our Christian testimony before man.
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I asked why do you put them together. The gospel and morality are separate. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
ttruscott said:
The discipline of Heb 12:5-12 IS obviously performance because we are chastised for it. Are we chastised, and every legitimate son is chastised, for being righteous and perfect???

Chapter 12 MUST reconcile with Chapter 10, not be ignored. Is your theology deficient to do this?
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After he has used it that way many times, it has to do with whether that person who was raised in Judaism has made the switch where it matters most. You might say it is their performance as far as it has to do with absorbing justification by Christ.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Interplanner said:
Just study up about imputated righteousness vs day to day reality. it will become clear.
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Perhaps you need to study up on what it means to be born again that that is the way it is imputed, purposed to be revealed day by day from the life of Christ indwelling one who is. It is a learning experience, per John 17:3 that can only begin and be "made clear" after one is born again.
 
revpete

revpete

New member
Nick M said:
I asked why do you put them together. The gospel and morality are separate. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
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The and morality are not separate! All things were lawful for Paul but not sinful things. The way you're using that verse you're are in great danger of straying into antinomianism. My answer to why I put them in juxtaposition is in #12.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Perhaps you need to study up on what it means to be born again that that is the way it is imputed, purposed to be revealed day by day from the life of Christ indwelling one who is. It is a learning experience, per John 17:3 that can only begin and be "made clear" after one is born again.
Click to expand...


As you can tell from the expression 'being born again' (even in the text!) it is an image; it is not the actual, literal thing he was talking about. Even Nic asked him that, and found out he was using a figure of speech.

You don't impute being born again. You have to have a thing of set value (for ex., in finance, it would be $1M. It would not be a banker saying 'I wish the best for you.'). That is what Christ's righteousness is, for our debt of sin. When God was in Christ, he was covering the shortfall of our debt, ie, reconciling those accounts. He made Christ a sin offering, so that we could have the righteousness of God in Christ.

This is why several key parables and incidents in Christ's work refer to the debt, not the stain, of sin:
the disreputable woman in Lk 7 (those who love much were forgiven much debt),
the unforgiving manager in Mt 18,
the shrewd manager in Lk 17 who cuts his friends debts in half ON PAPER,
"forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"
etc.

The verb that shows what kind of activity justification is are about debt: 'logizo' is is to transfer,
to credit,
to account,
to regard (in spite of reality, Rom 4:17; this verb is 'kaleo'),
to qualify (for a grant or for something of huge value beyond a person's own assets, ie, a mortgage).

Here is an example of negative imputation. An orphan from the civil war was living in an orphanage in the South and was being teased and bullied by the other boys. One day the house mother had had enough and caught this unfortunate orphan with something from the kitchen that the boys had framed him for. She punished him with a week's detention, he says in his biography, IMPUTING all the things the other boys had done to him.

There are two parts of salvation:
1, the work of God in Christ in history for us;
2, the work of God in us through the Spirit.
All there is is confusion if these two are mixed.

Thanks for the John 17:3 passage, it is exactly what this is talking about.

"The gospel of the changed-life has replaced the Gospel that changes lives." --Bible college pres. G. Paxton. Reminding us not to confuse #1 and #2; not to confuse cause and effect.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Interplanner said:
As you can tell from the expression 'being born again' (even in the text!) it is an image; it is not the actual, literal thing he was talking about. Even Nic asked him that, and found out he was using a figure of speech.

You don't impute being born again. You have to have a thing of set value (for ex., in finance, it would be $1M. It would not be a banker saying 'I wish the best for you.'). That is what Christ's righteousness is, for our debt of sin. When God was in Christ, he was covering the shortfall of our debt, ie, reconciling those accounts. He made Christ a sin offering, so that we could have the righteousness of God in Christ.

This is why several key parables and incidents in Christ's work refer to the debt, not the stain, of sin:
the disreputable woman in Lk 7 (those who love much were forgiven much debt),
the unforgiving manager in Mt 18,
the shrewd manager in Lk 17 who cuts his friends debts in half ON PAPER,
"forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"
etc.

The verb that shows what kind of activity justification is are about debt: 'logizo' is is to transfer,
to credit,
to account,
to regard (in spite of reality, Rom 4:17; this verb is 'kaleo'),
to qualify (for a grant or for something of huge value beyond a person's own assets, ie, a mortgage).

Here is an example of negative imputation. An orphan from the civil war was living in an orphanage in the South and was being teased and bullied by the other boys. One day the house mother had had enough and caught this unfortunate orphan with something from the kitchen that the boys had framed him for. She punished him with a week's detention, he says in his biography, IMPUTING all the things the other boys had done to him.

There are two parts of salvation:
1, the work of God in Christ in history for us;
2, the work of God in us through the Spirit.
All there is is confusion if these two are mixed.

Thanks for the John 17:3 passage, it is exactly what this is talking about.

"The gospel of the changed-life has replaced the Gospel that changes lives." --Bible college pres. G. Paxton. Reminding us not to confuse #1 and #2; not to confuse cause and effect.
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I am sorry, Interplanner but you don't seem to understand what I wrote.

Perhaps there might be one on the forum who does and will reply.


I'll wait. Thank you for your effort.
 
Nick M

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Interplanner said:
Because perfectionism is dangerous.
Click to expand...


Matthew 5

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


You are outside Christ. It is official now. I already knew, but needed you to slip up to show those (not John W) that think you are not a wolf.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
You just have to work with the terms a bit. You have to sort out what is objective and what is subjective. The main message of the NT is not what takes place inside the believer, as necessary as that is. It is only a side effect.

Just think on that for a while.

Imputation is something Luther called an outside or alien righteousness, because a 3rd party was providing it. maybe that will help us see that the main thing about the Gospel is not what happens inside us.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Nick M said:
Matthew 5

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


You are outside Christ. It is official now. I already knew, but needed you to slip up to show those (not John W) that think you are not a wolf.
Click to expand...


Yes, be perfect as much as you can, like the Father. But the delusion that we have been made such in actual existence is very dangerous. it has always been warned against down through the church's history, just as licentiousness/antinomianism has. They are both dangers.

Besides what good is one moment's perfection 5 minutes later? No person has more than a moment, if that. "Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief!" That was quick!
 
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