Nang
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This is not taught in Holy Scripture.
Rather, all that the Father draws to the Son, will believe.
ECT The Calvinist 5 Solas
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This is not taught in Holy Scripture.
Rather, all that the Father draws to the Son, will believe.
Dialogos
Well-known member
:thumb:
Well, let's take them one at a time and see which hold up and which do not...
This is true, or would be if Calvinists would refrain from redefining nearly every word in the English language that has any religious connotation to it.
The phrase "saved by grace alone", in the twisted Calvinist delusion, means "predestined for salvation for no reason whatsoever".
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
Since we know that God is just and not arbitrary we know that what the Calvinist means by Sola Gatia is false.
Having said that, there was no obligation for God to save anyone. God would have been well within His rights to wipe Adam and Eve from existence the moment that forbidden fruit touched their lips. He chose however to have mercy and put in motion that which He had planned from the beginning which was to provide a way of salvation for those who would believe. Those saved had nothing to do with the plan of salvation, they didn't petition for it, they weren't consulted about it nor were they involved in it's formation in anyway whatsoever because none of them existed when God Himself thought it through, planned it and carried it out, which He did in spite of the forces working against Him, not because of them. It is this desire, willingness and power to save that is God's grace and it is the only reason that we sinners have any hope whatsoever. Thus sola gracia.
Of course, as with the rest of these, the truthfulness of the doctrine depends on the meaning of the words used to define it.
Which gift is the Calvinist talking about and does their ideas about this gift and it's being given turn God into an arbitrary control freak?
I've yet to find a Calvinist who believed otherwise.
Leaving that aside for now, salvation has not always been through faith alone. From Abraham right through until Paul, it was faith plus good works. Now, today, in this present dispensation we are indeed saved by grace through faith alone but in the previous dispensation that was not the case.
James 2: 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
If you reject the dispensational view, which Calvinists often do, then your problem is even worse because James 2:24 directly and irrefutably contradicts the notion of sola fide.
(James 2 is not the only place this is taught. See also Ezekiel 18 and several other places throughout the scripture.)
So, sola fide, only works when properly understood from within a mid-Acts dispensational frame work.
It's hard to get this one wrong. The Calvinist trust in the righteousness of Christ for their salvation is perhaps their only saving grace (literally). It is what prevents them from being an entirely different religion from Christianity.
Some take this idea too far and suggest that Christ is the only one who ever preformed a righteous act - period. But that's so obviously false that it's hardly worth discussing and so long as the doctrine is not used to go to such irrational extremes, there's nothing in sola Christus to disagree with.
This one is flatly false and obviously so.
It's a doctrine that the bible doesn't teach and so it contradicts itself. Not to mention the fact that there were people saved long before the bible was written and there are those saved who have never heard of the bible. Romans 2:12-15
Having said that, the bible is our first authority in matters of Christian doctrine and practice. Or to put it another way, no true doctrine contradicts the bible.
The plan of salvation certainly bring glory to God. There can be no doubt about that but that isn't why God did it. He did it because He loves us and wants to bless us and promises to glorify us in Him. There are a list of benefits that would stretch to the Moon and back both for God and mankind.
The glory of God is accomplished to a tremendous degree but it is not the sole reason God does what He does.
And this sentence is itself the Calvinist delusion! They think that their doctrinal distinctives are the very gospel itself!
They're only baby steps away from being a cult.
Amen!
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Calvinism teaches that faith is a gift given by God and only some people have the ability to believe the gospel. And according to Calvinism all those who have the ability to believe will believe (the so-called "effectual calling" made up by the Calvinists).
However, the Scriptures tell a different story:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).
The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."
The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.
This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
However, the Scriptures tell a different story:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).
The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."
The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.
This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
This is a duplicate post to #15 on this forum.
Isn't there a rule against duplicate or repeated postings?
Dialogos
Well-known member
Clete said:
Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
So what does it mean that God is just? If the "reason" for predestination isn't the will of God alone (a notion to which you appear to object), then what is the "reason" for our predestination?
Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Since none of the Calvinist answered my post of which you speak I thought that perhaps they just overlooked it. But now I see that you didn't overlook it so perhaps you or another Calvinist will actually address what I said.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Scriptures do speak of predestination but they do not speak of anyone being predestined to salvation. When we look at the following passage we can see that the "called" are believers (them that love God) and it is those who are already believers and are already saved who are predestined:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
First of all, the Greek word translated "predestinate" means "to predetermine, decide beforehand...to foreordain, appoint beforehand."
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done..it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Here is another translation which makes the meaning even more clear:
"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29; NET).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21; NIV).
Right Divider
Body part
We reject your totally bogus definition of "predestination".
Dialogos
Well-known member
What is your definition of predestination?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what other source besides the Holy Scriptures do you turn to?
genuineoriginal
New member
We can trace the creation of the Bible to the early Christians from the time of Christ till the time when the Catholic church decided to wield apostate authority.
| 3 Big Problems with the Protestant Doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture Alone) 1) The Bible rejects it Where do Protestants get the idea that the Bible alone is the highest authority for Christians? Is this taught anywhere in the Bible? Actually, no. Pretty much all of the verses to which Protestants usually point to answer this question indeed speak highly of the authority of Scripture and its importance for the people of God (e.g. Psalm 119, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, et al), but none of them say that the Bible alone is the only authority. No only that, but the Bible upholds the authority of oral tradition alongside Scripture in contradiction of sola scriptura. In 2 Thessalonians 2.15, St. Paul writes: “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.” St. Paul is saying that his teachings are authoritative, whether he gave them by speaking (oral tradition) or writing (Scripture). 2) It can’t explain where we got the Bible If the Bible is the only authority for Christians, then where did Christians get the Bible in the first place? Who determined what books should be in the Bible? God did not hand Christians a fully compiled Bible out of the sky. Rather, God inspired many different writers over the course of many centuries to write the various books of the Bible. And then God inspired the Catholic Church, wielding apostolic authority and relying on oral tradition of what books are inspired, to definitively compile the biblical canon in the 4th century. This means that the biblical canon itself depends on the very authority of oral tradition and ecclesiastical authority that Protestants reject. 3) It doesn’t work The Bible has to be interpreted. Even when people think it’s clear what the Bible is saying, they are interpreting it. The problem is different Christians often interpret the Bible in contradictory, mutually exclusive ways. When that happens (and it happens constantly), how does the Christian church settle disagreements and safeguard the Gospel truth God has revealed in Jesus Christ? Because if Christians can’t agree on what the Gospel is, they can’t fulfill their responsibility to preach it. Sola scriptura offers no way out of these disagreements, except for Christians to split and go their separate ways – hence, myriad denominations. But this is a problem, too, because the Bible teaches that division among Christians is a sin (cf. 1 Cor 1.10ff, et al)! |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Who do you depend on for this "oral tradition"?
genuineoriginal
New member
The oral tradition at the time of the Apostles led to the writing of the New Testament.
At this time, we do not have any authoritative source of an oral tradition, so we have to depend on the writings that were left behind.
Do you believe in Sola Scriptura for all doctrines?
Then you must reject Sola Scriptura because it is not a doctrine that can be found in the Bible.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the church at Rome is your authority? But don't you understand that the "traditions" of that church contradict what Peter said here:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).
According to the "tradition" of the church at Rome there is another name besides that of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whereby people are saved, and that name is Mary:
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 969).
Rome puts her traditions above what the Scriptures actually teach. And you put more faith in the traditions of the church at Rome than you do in what the Scriptures say.
It means that He isn't arbitrary as Calvin taught and as nearly every Calvinist believes.
I mean, think about it. If the king of a nation ruled his country by arbitrary fiat command, putting some in castles and other in prison for no reason at all other than his will to do so, would you consider that king to be just or a tyrant?
You guys are all the time talking about how God's ways are higher than our ways. Well, true but that aren't lower than our ways! Why would anyone think God just for doing the same thing as an unjust man? It simply makes no sense whatsover!
Not only that but the literally blasphemous notion that God arbitrarily chooses to punish people for eternity in Hell is the furthest thing from being biblical! You guys preach sola scriptura all day long until it runs smack into your own doctrine then it become Sola Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3!
Read Ezekiel 18. Seriously. Read that one rather short chapter. That's just about as good an answer as I can think of to the question, "What does it mean that God is just?"
I reject the Calvinist teaching on predestination.
The bible speaks about certain things being predestined, which individuals will be saved and which will go to Hell isn't one of them.
A person is predestined for glory if and when he becomes a member of the Body of Christ.
genuineoriginal
New member
Please put your reading glasses on and read what I said again, since your question shows that you did not actually read what I wrote.
Of course I understand that.
That is why I said the the Catholic church wields apostate authority, even though they make the false claim of wielding apostolic authority.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I asked you which "traditions" you follow you mentioned the church at Rome. But you say that wasn't the answer to my question. So where do you find the "traditions" which you mentioned which reveal Divine truths not found in the Bible?
Dialogos
Well-known member
Well, first of all, this isn't what all Calvinists believe. There is no genuine victory in pushing down straw men. Calvinism espouses that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and therefore, apart from God, all are "predestined" to hell. There are some who are supralapsarian but I would venture to say that a good many, if not most, of those who hold to the doctrines of grace are either infralapsarian or sublapsarian.
Ergo, the most common Calvinistic belief is that God, because of His will, chooses to save some from the just condemnation of their sin and to show mercy. Justice doesn't mean all sinners get to go to heaven, justice means that we all get what we deserve. You know as well as I do that if Romans 3:23 is true then we all deserve hell, no one, save Christ, escaped a guilty setence. Not all serve time. God is not only just, He is also merciful. Ultimately, you aren't questioning the basis for God's justice, you are questioning the scope of God's mercy. And the scriptures are pretty clear that you aren't entitled to an explanation on who does and does not get to be an object of His mercy.
If the king justly condemned all of his citizens to prison for sedition and then commuted the sentences of some the others would have no cause to accuse the king of injustice.
Right. God justly punishes unrighteousness and exonerates the righteous. Did Jesus come to earth to preside over an awards ceremony for those righteous enough to merit eternal salvation?
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