Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
In as much as everybody will rise from the dead during the resurrection of the dead, yeah.
The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?
- Thread starter Arial
- Start date
If you can refute a syllable of it, I'd hear it gladly.
Arial
Active member
I put all of them on ignore and will try and get my head back in the game. I am learning a lot from looking into this perspective and discussion about it with others is helpful. Insult, ridicule, soap boxing, is not. Maybe that's the idea. Deflect and distract. It is a pretty effective weapon but last a checked we weren't to take up arms against one another. Everyone acts like it is my wedded to beliefs, and I am just beginning to study it. A lot of it makes sense IF the millennial is from resurrection to second coming, and certainly is more nourishment for the body of Christ if that is the case. I don't like to be so entrenched in something that I am blinded to all other possibilities and therefore stagnate. Even considering other possible scenarios than what a person has believed for a long time can be scary. And that is not to say that what we have believed for a long time is wrong. But I like to know.
Guess you and I are the only ones at least in this thread!
Right Divider
Body part
Nope, the "woman" is Israel.
Arial
Active member
Just before the election I was having a conversation about it with someone I know. She was all upset about how everyone, on whatever side, thought they were right. She got so adamant that people shouldn't be that way, angry even, that people always thought they were right. Of course she did not realize that she herself was insisting on how right she was to say we should all straddle the fences as we go through life. When it is "basic common sense" that if we didn't think we were right we would believe something else.
What is coming out in this thread in vicious waves, is a people who realize this is true for everyone else but cannot see that it is true of them also.
A real life example of this type of reasoning: I was riding with a friend in her big SUV. She is an aggressive driver, riding people's bumpers, breaking all the speeding and other traffic laws, prone to constant verbal road rage. We find ourselves behind another SUV and she says to me, "When I get behind an SUV I can't see what is in front of them, I don't think people have that problem when they are behind me." I challenge you to find the "reason" in that! I was so flabbergasted I just let it go. If only I could learn to do that here!
I think Nero COULD have been THE Antichrist, had God decided to come back before 70 A.D. But since He didn't, he wasn't.
Just so you know, "appeal to common sense" is a fallacy, because A) common sense isn't common and B) what may be common sense may not be correct.
If you haven't already, I highly recommend listening to Bob's Bible study on Song of Solomon. He did a masterful job of making it extremely clear as to what was being said.
Arial
Active member
I am kind of leaning towards the counting of the tribes and the use of the number 12 is a representative of the complete people of God---as that is what that number represents in scripture. As pertaining to Israel, it was no accident that Jacob had twelve sons who became the 12 tribes---that was God's design. It can be said that that still makes it literal---other than it also represents a large number rather than a literal 12,000---in the sense that it pertains to Israel only. However in my opinion that goes out the window in what follows that indicate ALL the people of God.
I am looking into the omission of Dan and Ephraim and can't find much already researched info on it other than Dan's idolatry and and Ephraim is sometimes used to designate the entire northern kingdom (and some specifics, but won't go into it here. I need to get busy.) I have a sense there is even more to it than that, and that it may be related to whether this count is literal Jews or all believers. And if not, unveil some of the perfect way in which God works----with nothing, not a word or action or plan is arbitrary but full of meaning and intent. That is who God is. And these "mysteries" are not things that in any way change what is clear, or to build new doctrine on, and are useful only for maybe getting a better understanding, but certainly are wonderful in growing in the knowledge of God.
Right Divider
Body part
The idea of "all the people of God" still has a context. In the context of Israel's position as the head of the nations it's different than in the body of Christ where there are no distinctions between Jew and Greek. Until you understand these things, you will continue to force a blurring of these things.
Two is all we need (where two or more are gathered in my name).I put all of them on ignore and will try and get my head back in the game. I am learning a lot from looking into this perspective and discussion about it with others is helpful. Insult, ridicule, soap boxing, is not. Maybe that's the idea. Deflect and distract. It is a pretty effective weapon but last a checked we weren't to take up arms against one another. Everyone acts like it is my wedded to beliefs, and I am just beginning to study it. A lot of it makes sense IF the millennial is from resurrection to second coming, and certainly is more nourishment for the body of Christ if that is the case. I don't like to be so entrenched in something that I am blinded to all other possibilities and therefore stagnate. Even considering other possible scenarios than what a person has believed for a long time can be scary. And that is not to say that what we have believed for a long time is wrong. But I like to know.
Guess you and I are the only ones at least in this thread!
But more are welcome.
We already have multiple perspectives expressed in this thread.
Let's roll on and find some more.
Got a link?
Yeah, I don't even care if the 144,000 are only Jews or not when it comes to the big picture.
And the big picture is that God is going to reunite the whole world to Himself.
I view Israel to be a mini version of what God does for the whole world.
But Dan being completely absent is strange because the prophets have told that the whole house of Israel (northern & southern kingdoms) will be united again.
So how and when does Revelation show the tribe of Dan getting back into the list?
Where does Revelation show the whole house of Israel united?
Right Divider
Body part
Did you follow the link in this post? https://theologyonline.com/threads/the-book-of-revelation-mystery-or-profitable.57978/post-1834136
Arial
Active member
@Tambora
Re: Dan and Ephraim not being listed with the twelve tribes is Rev 7. I haven't begun looking into in depth yet, and I won't dwell on it but also move on to other parts of Revelation, but there are some reasons why I think there might be more to it.
Manasseh, Joseph's other son is, and one of Manasseh's sons served as a priest to the tribe of Dan. (Unless it is not referring to the tribe .) Judges 18. Micah was from the tribe of Ephraim. OK. Side track. I am seeing the deeper connection to this treacherous collusion between Dan and Ephraim.
But why is Manasseh numbered in Rev.?
Another thing is it must be more than idolatry because all Israel and Judah at some points committed idolatry.
All the northern tribes (10) called Israel were scattered by Assyria in judgment and a remnant did not return from them. (The lost tribes.)
Only two tribes were left as part of Israel, Judah and Benjamin and only these two tribes returned after the Babylonian captivity.
Another reason for my questions on the full meaning of the numbering in Rev and whether it is literal or not, is that though descendants of the 12 tribes still exist, the mixing in of tribe to tribe and even Gentile descendants being mixed in with "tribal blood" because of the scattering, the tribes as tribes no longer exist.
Re: Dan and Ephraim not being listed with the twelve tribes is Rev 7. I haven't begun looking into in depth yet, and I won't dwell on it but also move on to other parts of Revelation, but there are some reasons why I think there might be more to it.
Manasseh, Joseph's other son is, and one of Manasseh's sons served as a priest to the tribe of Dan. (Unless it is not referring to the tribe .) Judges 18. Micah was from the tribe of Ephraim. OK. Side track. I am seeing the deeper connection to this treacherous collusion between Dan and Ephraim.
But why is Manasseh numbered in Rev.?
Another thing is it must be more than idolatry because all Israel and Judah at some points committed idolatry.
All the northern tribes (10) called Israel were scattered by Assyria in judgment and a remnant did not return from them. (The lost tribes.)
Only two tribes were left as part of Israel, Judah and Benjamin and only these two tribes returned after the Babylonian captivity.
Another reason for my questions on the full meaning of the numbering in Rev and whether it is literal or not, is that though descendants of the 12 tribes still exist, the mixing in of tribe to tribe and even Gentile descendants being mixed in with "tribal blood" because of the scattering, the tribes as tribes no longer exist.
Arial
Active member
Very good question. I will need to look into it more. Off the top of my head----could it mean the numbering is not literal and Jews only, but a representation of all the redeemed, the redeemed being God's people. And then Dan and Ephraim being left out is simply a representation of ultimate utter rebellion against God---those who worship the beast in other words (over all time and the beast in this instance being a representation of Satan and his influence in the world.) Although I tend to believe that in the last battle, Satan's last attempt at destroying Christ's church and/or its people, there will be the Beast, called antichrist, embodied in a man. Just as there have been lesser beasts at different points in history. So then Dan and Ephraim would be representative of those who reject Christ?
The 144,000 are named to be in Christ in heaven reigning with Him, a great multitude, and according to amillennialism, are the dead in Christ. That great cloud of witnesses we are surrounded by---now---in Heb 12:1-3. That sentence starts with "Therefore" and follows the famous chapter on OT faith heros.
Thanks for the input. It made me think through some things, which is what I dearly love about actual discussions.
Didn't have time before, but I'll look at it now.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Certainly that's true for you, Arial. That's why it's so funny hearing you drone on about us.
Revelation 13:18 KJV
(18) Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
This word (count) is only used 1 other time:
The Luke verses (and those surrounding it) seem to be indicating that you must make an assessment if your decision has favorable results (a victory) or not.
The base of G5585 is G5586.
G5586 appears in Revelation here:
Where do we find new name in OT scripture?
Isaiah 62:2 KJV
(2) And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
(18) Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
G5585
Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
2) to give one’s vote by casting a pebble into the urn
3) to decide by voting
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5586
This word (count) is only used 1 other time:
Luke 14:28 KJV
(28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
The Luke verses (and those surrounding it) seem to be indicating that you must make an assessment if your decision has favorable results (a victory) or not.
The base of G5585 is G5586.
G5586
Thayer Definition:
1) a small worn smooth stone, a pebble
1a) in the ancient courts of justice the accused were condemned by black pebbles and the acquitted by white pebbles
2) a vote (on account of the use of pebbles in voting)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G5584
G5586 appears in Revelation here:
Revelation 2:17 KJV
(17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Where do we find new name in OT scripture?
Isaiah 62:2 KJV
(2) And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
It was specifically Jerusalem, the city that controlled Israel.