THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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bibleverse2 said:
They are the same, for Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Christian Gentiles are not strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with Jewish Christians. Read also what Ephesians 3:6 says.

Also, Matthew 7:21 is talking about the same people as Romans 2:6-8.
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Such immense confusion.

The "fellow citizens" is not "in Israel", but in the household GOD.

Eph 2:19 KJV Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;​
 
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DougE

Well-known member
turbosixx said:
I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying these are different gospels? If so, based on what?
Thanks
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Hello
Israel had to believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah to have eternal life (John 3:16). Jesus nor the apostles preached the cross yet as did Paul; they preached the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached his death and resurrection for the new testament for Israel.
 
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DougE

Well-known member
bibleverse2 said:
Note that the principle was taught by Jesus in John 15:5. And nothing in the Bible supports any dichotomy between the Church and the body, for they are one and the same (Colossians 1:18).



None apart from Biblical Christians who obey God (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5).

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Are you thinking of 2 Timothy 2:15b?

If so, it refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:

andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewaters
andletitdividethewatersfromthewatersandgodmadethefir
mamentanddividedthewaterswhichwereunderthefirmam
entfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditw

This meant that those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) had to rightly divide between the words to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the example above, if one mistakenly divided: "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words: "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of Him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the first heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in rain clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.
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Hello
John 15:5 speaks of abiding in Christ but says nothing about the church the body of Christ.
 
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DougE

Well-known member
bibleverse2 said:
Note that it includes some Gentiles as being in elect, spiritual Israel (Romans 9:24).

(See also post #46 above)

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It refers to works of faith, rather than works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. The former are required for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).



Initially, but not ultimately (Matthew 7:21). Also, Ephesians 2:10 does not mean that Christians will automatically perform good works. For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13), because of free will.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).



And also to be ultimately accepted by Him (2 Corinthians 5:9), and not rejected by Him to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).



Abraham was ultimately justified unto eternal life by both his faith and his works:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

(See also post #65 above)



They are the same, for Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Christian Gentiles are not strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with Jewish Christians. Read also what Ephesians 3:6 says.

Also, Matthew 7:21 is talking about the same people as Romans 2:6-8.
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Romans 2:6-8 speaks to how God judges but God says there is none righteous in Romans 3:10 which shows that no one can be saved by their own good works or righteousness.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
steko said:
Did the twelve proclaim the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ at any point before the crucifixion of Christ took place?
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No, not before Pentecost. They didn't understand the fact that Jesus had to die and be raised even though they were told.

steko said:

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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What was it going to take to establish the kingdom?


steko said:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob[Israel] for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
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Why do you think it's David's throne and the house of Jacob?

steko said:
The gospel of the kingdom preached by the Lord Jesus and the twelve is obviously not the same as the gospel which Paul preached later:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
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This isn't Paul preaching the gospel to potential converts. This is Paul writing to Christians who have already been converted. In 15:1 he says "by which ye have received"
In the first chapter he says "And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
What do you think Paul preached to the Corinthians to convert them?


15:2 says By which also ye are saved
Thousands were saved by the preaching on Pentecost.
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
 
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turbosixx said:
No, not before Pentecost. They didn't understand the fact that Jesus had to die and be raised even though they were told.
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Neither did they "preach the cross" as good news at Pentecost. They preached it as a murder weapon.

turbosixx said:
What was it going to take to establish the kingdom?
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Among other things, Christ sitting on the throne of His father David... which is in Jerusalem.

turbosixx said:
Why do you think it's David's throne and the house of Jacob?
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Because God's Word, the Bible, says so.
 
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turbosixx

turbosixx

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DougE

Well-known member
steko said:
euaggelion existed in the Greek language long before the NT was written and meant good news about anything that was good news. Context explains what the particular good news is being referred to in the NT.

Did the twelve proclaim the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ at any point before the crucifixion of Christ took place?

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob[Israel] for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The gospel of the kingdom preached by the Lord Jesus and the twelve is obviously not the same as the gospel which Paul preached later:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
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Hello
I agree with all that you said and thanks, I missed seeing the mention of the kingdom of David found in Mark 11:10
 
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turbosixx said:
Is Jesus King of the Jews only?
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Your childish tactics are tiresome.

Is He the King of Israel? Will He sit on the throne of His father David?

The King of Israel will rule the entire world as the Gentiles kings will come to bow before Him.

Rev 21:24 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.​

​
Isa 60:11-12 KJV Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. (12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.​
 
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bibleverse2

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Right Divider said:
The "fellow citizens" is not "in Israel", but in the household GOD.

Eph 2:19 KJV Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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Which is the Israel which Gentiles used to be strangers in (Ephesians 2:12).

(See also post #81 above)
 
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bibleverse2

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DougE said:
Israel had to believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah to have eternal life (John 3:16).
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Note that so does the rest of the world (John 3:16).

DougE said:
Jesus nor the apostles preached the cross yet as did Paul; they preached the gospel of the kingdom.
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Note that both Jesus and Paul preached the Cross (Matthew 20:28; 1 Corinthians 15:3), just as both preached the Kingdom of God (Luke 17:21, Romans 14:17).

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DougE said:
John 15:5 speaks of abiding in Christ but says nothing about the church the body of Christ.
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Note that it is the same principle as Ephesians 5:30. That is, John 15:5a refers to the idea of the body of Jesus Christ, of which all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, the connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), is that the salvation which all Christians have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

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DougE said:
Romans 2:6-8 speaks to how God judges but God says there is none righteous in Romans 3:10 which shows that no one can be saved by their own good works or righteousness.
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Note that Romans 3:10 refers to people before they become Christians, not after (2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 John 1:9).
 
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