The Absolute Oneness of God

[RevTestament]

The Book of Life is analogous to the Tree of Life. Those found written in the book are those who believed in the lamb so have right to the tree of life. The book of life has nothing or very little to do with a connecting to an infinite consciousness. Nor can Mr Cayce replace the lamb in accessing the book...

 

[aikido7]

...so much for the Trinity.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

If you don't drink Jesus' Blood and eat His Flesh (symbolically) you have no life in you. If you're not born again you cannot even see The Kingdom. How do you think that you can describe or understand something that you cannot yet see? You're blind but running around in circles, screaming: "Follow me, follow me!!!" You think you understand but your understanding is darkened. You walk by sight, but you cannot lead anyone since you're blind to your true condition.

Sorry Aimiel but you err for not knowing the Scriptures. If you read Exod. 19:6 I don't need to see the Kingdom for we are the Kingdom of the Lord by being His Holy Nation. Please, read the quote I have just given you here and you will understand what the Kingdom of the Lord is. I mean, if Christian preconceived notions do not stand between you and your wish to understand. A Jew may not want to see, but he is never blind to his own condition. This is for the followers of Paul who believe by faith and naively leave the understanding with Paul.(II Cor. 5:7) That's the only dark understanding there is. To the one who walks by faith.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Having His Son share in His oneness and take on the form of a man is a far cry from goat or a statue. Born of a virgin, Emmanuel... God with us. Isiaih 7:14

You too Jamie err for not knowing the Scriptures and the Power of HaShem. Prophet Isaiah even identifies by name the Immanuel, born of the virgin Israel that fell at the hands of the Assyrians and was transferred forever Eastward to Azazel in Assyria. The name is Judah if you read Amos 5:2; Isa. 7:14, 15, 22 and 8:8; I Kings 11:36; and Psalm 78:67-70. Judah, the Jewish People are the real Immanuel between HaShem and the world.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

[quoteI agree with that in part,...however if we consider that 'God' is a divine personality, being our Universal Father, we can say that his personality has a 'will', at least personally speaking. Now concerning that "He is a will" (as you indicate above), a newer revelation speaks of 'God' in this manner that "He is will" (note the differential), this takes it even further.

Freelight, I can see how psychologically persuasive you are trying to embellish your approach with me but, personality is a concept we use to evaluate or describe the traits of character humans possess. Psychologically, it goes quite well with humans but not as Theology is concerned. HaShem cannot be compared with man or with nothing whatsoever. (Isa. 46:5) It was considering this point of view that when Albert Einstein was asked if he was an atheist and he said, "Absolutely not! I cannot think of God on a personal basis but an atheist, I could never be one." (From his book "Out of My Latter Years.") As HaShem is concerned, to admit that God has a personality is the same as to compare Him with man which is a no, no according to Isa. 46:5. Looking for special characteristics in God is akin to a contradiction to His absolute Oneness.

The Urantia Papers speak of God being a divine personality, but also acknowledges God's non or tans-personal attributes and characteristics as well,...but note that even if we say that "He is will"....this 'will' is exercised by God personally, because it affects persons, and is expressed thru 'personality'.

It seems that way that God has a personality because we do. but, in reality that's not so. We have most the time a healthy ability to strike with God a personal relationship but because it is in us to do so. It does not mean though, that God deals personally with us, unless through the means of dreams and visions. (Numb. 12:6) Jesus made it very clear when he said once that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) As we all know, I hope, spirits do not have personality and cannot be compared to humans.

 

[freelight]

God is One, even as a divine Personality

God is One, even as a divine Personality

Freelight, I can see how psychologically persuasive you are trying to embellish your approach with me but, personality is a concept we use to evaluate or describe the traits of character humans possess. Psychologically, it goes quite well with humans but not as Theology is concerned. HaShem cannot be compared with man or with nothing whatsoever. (Isa. 46:5) It was considering this point of view that when Albert Einstein was asked if he was an atheist and he said, "Absolutely not! I cannot think of God on a personal basis but an atheist, I could never be one." (From his book "Out of My Latter Years.") As HaShem is concerned, to admit that God has a personality is the same as to compare Him with man which is a no, no according to Isa. 46:5. Looking for special characteristics in God is akin to a contradiction to His absolute Oneness.

Adding onto my former quote about 'God' not just having a 'will', ...but being 'will'....here is more from this resource on the 'Personality' of 'God' (video and text links) - I think the Urantia Papers by themselves present a good case of revealing 'God' as a divine personality, and the intricate dynamic and characteristics of 'personality' itself originating from God. As we consider 'personality' itself, it can have no other origin but 'God',....there is no other source for it. 'God' the Father of all 'personality' is naturally the Father of all 'personalities' as well. Understanding this does not negate the reality of 'God' being 'transpersonal' or aspects of his 'Being' that are 'non-personal', yet includes all 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of spirit and soul, as included in his creation.

It seems that way that God has a personality because we do. but, in reality that's not so. We have most the time a healthy ability to strike with God a personal relationship but because it is in us to do so. It does not mean though, that God deals personally with us, unless through the means of dreams and visions. (Numb. 12:6) Jesus made it very clear when he said once that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) As we all know, I hope, spirits do not have personality and cannot be compared to humans.

Almost all scriptural accounts are dealings with personalities inter-acting with other personalities, and it could not be otherwise with man's inter-action with Deity as a divine Personality. Jesus furthermore interacted and referred to 'God' as his personal Father, and reveals that all men are the children of this One God. Such a 'familial' relationship is intimately 'personal'. Relationally, this is so, within the context of personalities RELATING to one another. (this 'relating' is with any consciousness that interacts thru a personality-medium of any kind, as far as persons are concerned).

As far as your statements that 'spirits' have no personality, I see no proof of such an assumption, if we are referring to human spirits/souls that are conscious entities still operating as a 'personality' of some kind, or having 'personality' of any kind. Here we dive into metaphysics,...and how we define our terms 'spirit', 'soul', 'personality', etc. I approach it from mainly a spiritualist context,....so that 'spirit-souls' are conscious entities. Our difference may be with our understanding of definition of 'terms' in this context.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Adding onto my former quote about 'God' not just having a 'will', ...but being 'will'....here is more from this resource on the 'Personality' of 'God' - I think the Urantia Papers by themselves present a good case of revealing 'God' as a divine personality, and the intricate dynamic and characteristics of 'personality' itself originating from God. As we consider 'personality' itself, it can have no other origin but 'God',....there is no other source for it. 'God' the Father of all 'personality' is naturally the Father of all 'personalities' as well. Understanding this does not negate the reality of 'God' being 'transpersonal' or aspects of his 'Being' that are 'non-personal', yet includes all 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of spirit and soul, as included in his creation.

Almost all scriptural accounts are dealings with personalities inter-acting with other personalities, and it could not be otherwise with man's inter-action with Deity as a divine Personality. Jesus furthermore interacted and referred to 'God' as his personal Father, and reveals that all men are the children of this One God. Such a 'familial' relationship is intimately 'personal'. Relationally, this is so, within the context of personalities RELATING to one another. (this 'relating' is with any consciousness that interacts thru a personality-medium of any kind, as far as persons are concerned).

As far as your statements that 'spirits' have no personality, I see no proof of such an assumption, if we are referring to human spirits/souls that are conscious entities still operating as a 'personality' of some kind, or having 'personality' of any kind. Here we dive into metaphysics,...and how we define our terms 'spirit', 'soul', 'personality', etc. I approach it from mainly a spiritualist context,....so that 'spirit-souls' are conscious entities. Our difference may be with our understanding of definition of 'terms' in this context.

God cannot be compared with man under no circumstances. (Isa. 46:5) To attribute a personality to God because man has personality is no different from comparing God with man. True that we can strike a personal relationship with HaShem but not to expect that He return the same kind of relationship.

 

[freelight]

Origination, likeness and potential.....

Origination, likeness and potential.....

God cannot be compared with man under no circumstances. (Isa. 46:5)

My previous commentary on God's personality and man's personality is not necessarily a 'comparison', but a matter of man's personality originating from a Father-personality. It is this context that man can have a personal-relationship with 'God'. Be careful that you don't distance 'God' so far that you lose sight of His 'relatable' qualities and attributes.

To attribute a personality to God because man has personality is no different from comparing God with man.

I disagree. While 'God' has a higher transcendental personality that supercedes mans,...man's personality still originates from that Original Personality. They can be 'compared' if you want to use that word, but its more an issue of origination, likeness and potential. I find the Urantia Book does a wonderful presentation on this very subject comprehensively. I can just as well assume 'God' is some nebulous essence or transcendental presence, as much as I can that He/She also has 'personality' as well. 'God' includes/contains all dimensions.

True that we can strike a personal relationship with HaShem but not to expect that He return the same kind of relationship.

I see you admit the bold above after all - but to the underlined afterwards,...I ask why not? If 'God' is a divine Personality, He/She could surely RELATE to other offspring-personalities thru a personality-circuit, also thru his own Spirit-presence in those persons. I don't see a problem here. Note that in every instance in the Bible of 'God' speaking or revealing himself.... 'God' is relating to personalities. 'God' is 'personal'. Of course 'God' is also more than 'personal'....being 'pre-personal', 'trans-personal', 'super-personal', etc.

I approach this from a broader contextual over-view of terms and meanings. Our views will expand and correlate as we research this subject more, adding dimensions.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

My previous commentary on God's personality and man's personality is not necessarily a 'comparison', but a matter of man's personality originating from a Father-personality. It is this context that man can have a personal-relationship with 'God'. Be careful that you don't distance 'God' so far that you lose sight of His 'relatable' qualities and attributes.

If it helps you or not, the only way for God to strike a personal relationship with man is through dreams and visions. (Num. 12:6)

I disagree. While 'God' has a higher transcendental personality that supercedes mans,...man's personality still originates from that Original Personality. They can be 'compared' if you want to use that word, but its more an issue of origination, likeness and potential. I find the Urantia Book does a wonderful presentation on this very subject comprehensively. I can just as well assume 'God' is some nebulous essence or transcendental presence, as much as I can that He/She also has 'personality' as well. 'God' includes/contains all dimensions.

Do you know something Freelight? How about reading Deuteronomy 4:15,16? Perhaps it will help you with this issue of personality in God.

I see you admit the bold above after all - but to the underlined afterwards,...I ask why not? If 'God' is a divine Personality, He/She could surely RELATE to other offspring-personalities thru a personality-circuit, also thru his own Spirit-presence in those persons. I don't see a problem here. Note that in every instance in the Bible of 'God' speaking or revealing himself.... 'God' is relating to personalities. 'God' is 'personal'. Of course 'God' is also more than 'personal'....being 'pre-personal', 'trans-personal', 'super-personal', etc.

Yes, no doubt we can indeed strike a relationship with the Lord but not to expect that the Lord do the same towards us unless through the means of a dream or vision. (Numb. 12:6) Even a collective personal relationship would come from the Lord but through His Servants the Prophets by means of dreams and visions.

I approach this from a broader contextual over-view of terms and meanings. Our views will expand and correlate as we research this subject more, adding dimensions.

Well, let us keep studying. We always have more and more to learn.

 

[freelight]

Nature of God as having 'personality'......

Nature of God as having 'personality'......

If it helps you or not, the only way for God to strike a personal relationship with man is through dreams and visions. (Num. 12:6)

Hi Ben,

I don't see this verse in particular meaning that 'God' ONLY speaks to his prophets in dreams and visions. That is one way he can communicate, but expressions in the scripture reveal God communicating in other ways as well, thru actual visitations (you can debate the nature of these 'visitations', 'divine manifestations', 'voices', etc.). You'll have to prove in every instance 'God' only spoke thru 'dreams and visions' to individuals thru-out history, exclusively.

Also, since you only accept the Torah and the prophets (as far as I know) as the only authorative source or religious book having the truth about 'God', you're limited to only that 'interpretation' or 'tradition'. I glean from other and diverse religious texts, traditions and cultures, so may come at in from a multi-dimensional perspective.

Do you know something Freelight? How about reading Deuteronomy 4:15,16? Perhaps it will help you with this issue of personality in God.

The Deity here is speaking of not having a visible 'form', not not having a 'personality' - note: this Deity SPOKE apparently with an intelligible VOICE. An intelligence must have personality to communicate personally to persons. Now we can debate over what 'personality' infers or contains, but this Deity is an intelligent entity communicating to persons, they being able to understand what is being communicated. On this 'relational-level'....there is 'personal' inter-action. This 'context' allows communication, AND certainly these ancient people (whether just a mythical story or actual historical events) approach, pray to, communicate with 'God' as a 'personal' God, even if as a transcendental 'super-personal' BEING.

Yes, no doubt we can indeed strike a relationship with the Lord but not to expect that the Lord do the same towards us unless through the means of a dream or vision. (Numb. 12:6) Even a collective personal relationship would come from the Lord but through His Servants the Prophets by means of dreams and visions.

Again, I see different means and manners that 'God' can communicate with man. - in different "forms"

Well, let us keep studying. We always have more and more to learn.

Definitely. A student of truth is always open to challenge, question and research his findings, opinions, speculations and assumptions. He is like a spiritual scientist.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Hi Ben,

I don't see this verse in particular meaning that 'God' ONLY speaks to his prophets in dreams and visions. That is one way he can communicate, but expressions in the scripture reveal God communicating in other ways as well, thru actual visitations (you can debate the nature of these 'visitations', 'divine manifestations', 'voices', etc.). You'll have to prove in every instance 'God' only spoke thru 'dreams and visions' to individuals thru-out history, exclusively.

Also, since you only accept the Torah and the prophets (as far as I know) as the only authorative source or religious book having the truth about 'God', you're limited to only that 'interpretation' or 'tradition'. I glean from other and diverse religious texts, traditions and cultures, so may come at in from a multi-dimensional perspective.

The Deity here is speaking of not having a visible 'form', not not having a 'personality' - note: this Deity SPOKE apparently with an intelligible VOICE. An intelligence must have personality to communicate personally to persons. Now we can debate over what 'personality' infers or contains, but this Deity is an intelligent entity communicating to persons, they being able to understand what is being communicated. On this 'relational-level'....there is 'personal' inter-action. This 'context' allows communication, AND certainly these ancient people (whether just a mythical story or actual historical events) approach, pray to, communicate with 'God' as a 'personal' God, even if as a transcendental 'super-personal' BEING.

Again, I see different means and manners that 'God' can communicate with man. - in different "forms"

Definitely. A student of truth is always open to challenge, question and research his findings, opinions, speculations and assumptions. He is like a spiritual scientist.

Okay Freelight, based on your last statement above, I am ready to discuss further with you for more learning specially to prove in every instance that God spoke only through dreams and visions. Dissect the Tanach and show me the text you think is an evidence that God must have communicated with man more on personal basis. Let's get our thoughts together. Perhaps, who knows, I am not holding all the truth myself.

 

[freelight]

Okay Freelight, based on your last statement above, I am ready to discuss further with you for more learning specially to prove in every instance that God spoke only through dreams and visions. Dissect the Tanach and show me the text you think is an evidence that God must have communicated with man more on personal basis. Let's get our thoughts together. Perhaps, who knows, I am not holding all the truth myself.

Excellent,....this would be an interesting study going thru all the 'contact' accounts, where 'God' is communicating with man in any way in the OT. The NT would have a different nuance of this of course with the 'incarnation' of Jesus...so perhaps Christianity is a move towards man having a more intimate relationship with God? - there is a whole branch of 'incarnational theology' relating the 'intimacy' of God and Man revealed in the incarnation, etc.

But back to the OT....it appears we have various theophanies. We'd have to cover every case, but Deity must come down to be 'related' to 'personally' or what kind of religion do we have? You acknowledge this, but still have a tendency to make 'God' wholly 'other'. - His 'holiness' is wonderful...assuming there is none like God, but he still relates to us thru 'personality'. As I shared from the Urantia Book material here, it expounds on this insightfully. - we just considering 'personality' itself. Sure 'God' is greater than our concept of 'personality', but God must be the originator of it, therefore can be related to as an all-supreme personality. After all, didn't Jesus call God his 'Father' and encouraged us to call God "Our Father"? Father is an intimate term. Its 'personal', because it indicates a relationship between 'persons', on an individual basis. If each soul is a child of God, then God is their personal Father (he loves and relates to each 'person', as well as to any community of persons.) - from here we have a foundational premise of Jesus gospel being 'The Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man'.

Anyways,....we can explore more later.....

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Excellent,....this would be an interesting study going thru all the 'contact' accounts, where 'God' is communicating with man in any way in the OT. The NT would have a different nuance of this of course with the 'incarnation' of Jesus...so perhaps Christianity is a move towards man having a more intimate relationship with God? - there is a whole branch of 'incarnational theology' relating the 'intimacy' of God and Man revealed in the incarnation, etc.

But back to the OT....it appears we have various theophanies. We'd have to cover every case, but Deity must come down to be 'related' to 'personally' or what kind of religion do we have? You acknowledge this, but still have a tendency to make 'God' wholly 'other'. - His 'holiness' is wonderful...assuming there is none like God, but he still relates to us thru 'personality'. As I shared from the Urantia Book material. Sure 'God' is greater than our concept of 'personality', but God must be the originator of it, therefore can be related to as an all-supreme personality. After all, didn't Jesus call God his 'Father' and encouraged us to call God "Our Father"? Father is an intimate term. Its 'personal', because it indicates a relationship between 'persons', on an individual basis. If each soul is a child of God, then God is their personal Father (he loves and relates to each 'person', as well as to any community of persons.) - from here we have a foundational premise of Jesus gospel being 'The Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man'.

Anyways,....we can explore more later.....

With the incarnation of Jesus yes, but through the means of Joseph and Mary. I hope you agree with me.

Now, Jesus indeed called HaShem his Father as we all are encouraged to in our prayers or relations to Him for without the Primal Cause, we would not exist. And as I said before, we do reserve the right and nature to relate to the Lord in a personal basis but the feedback used to happen only through dreams and visions. (Numb. 12;6) But we still have to verify the evidences you have for a personal revelation initiated by Him. To this point, the fatherhood of God on a personal basis is still to be demonstrated.

 

[freelight]

More on 'personality'.......

More on 'personality'.......

With the incarnation of Jesus yes, but through the means of Joseph and Mary. I hope you agree with me.

And this context of 'incarnational theology' brings God intimately to us to relate and commune with him. His spirit indwells us, and we dwell within his omnipresent Spirit. Here we experience God within and without, all-pervading,...an intimate intertwining of the finite and infinite.

Now, Jesus indeed called HaShem his Father as we all are encouraged to in our prayers or relations to Him for without the Primal Cause, we would not exist. And as I said before, we do reserve the right and nature to relate to the Lord in a personal basis but the feedback used to happen only through dreams and visions. (Numb. 12;6) But we still have to verify the evidences you have for a personal revelation initiated by Him. To this point, the fatherhood of God on a personal basis is still to be demonstrated.

On this note, lets consider a few of these passages from the Urantia Book (UB) on the 'reality of God'. -

1:2.3 The actuality of the existence of God is demonstrated in human experience by the indwelling of the divine presence, the spirit Monitor sent from Paradise to live in the mortal mind of man and there to assist in evolving the immortal soul of eternal survival. The presence of this divine Adjuster in the human mind is disclosed by three experiential phenomena:


1. The intellectual capacity for knowing God—God-consciousness.
2. The spiritual urge to find God—God-seeking.
3. The personality craving to be like God—the wholehearted desire to do the Father's will.

1:2.7 The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

1:2.8 Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father.

The above may be introducing new concepts which you may be familiar with, although your present theology does not accept the concept of an 'immortal soul' (even later assumed in time), such as the survival of the 'personality' and its potential to share in 'immortality' (eternal survival) as a partaker of the divine nature. The UB uses its own specific terms, also including the concept of the 'Thought-adjuster' (a fragment of divine spirit) that indwells the minds of mortals, that can later fuse with the soul-personality...thereby insuring its 'eternal survival' (like as Paul says, the 'putting on of immortality').

As we've discussed in the past, our views differ on these points, I assuming a more spiritualist view of the soul's eternal progression and 'immortality-potential'. Further discussion will cover these and how we define or contextualize our 'terms' of course. But note: at least our knowledge of 'God' comes down to our own personal religious experience of 'God' (within and without), by his indwelling spirit, and our own soul's witness of 'reality' (however perceived or experienced) that has no other source but 'God'. This 'God' is the source as well of our soul-personality (being its Father), and the insurer of its survival beyond this life and into eternity.

For an overview on Personality expounded in the UB, go here. (serving only as a springboard on the subject)

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

And this context of 'incarnational theology' brings God intimately to us to relate and commune with him. His spirit indwells us, and we dwell within his omnipresent Spirit. Here we experience God within and without, all-pervading,...an intimate intertwining of the finite and infinite.

You missed to tell me if you agreed or not with me that the incarnation of Jesus was through Joseph and Mary. Nothing to do with the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was son of God without a biological father. (Acts 9:20; Mat. 1:18)

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

Nu! Is every one satisfied with walking by faith rather than walking by sight? (II Cor. 5:7) When Paul juxtaposed walking by faith with walking by sight, he meant that his followers should walk by faith and leave the understanding with him. Obviously, he couldn't stand wise guys around him.

 

[jamie]

Dissect the Tanach and show me the text you think is an evidence that God must have communicated with man more on personal basis.

So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11 NKJV)​

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Oneness of God

So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11 NKJV)​

Yes, but in a dream/vision. Face-to-face but in a dream/vision. Evidence? When Moses asked Him to show him His glory just as He is, the Lord answered him and denied his request by saying, "No one can see my "face" and live. (Exod. 33:18-20)

 

[jamie]

When Jacob wrestled with God, did he see his face?

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30 NKJV)​

 

[freelight]

VB - virgin births and beyond............

VB - virgin births and beyond............

You missed to tell me if you agreed or not with me that the incarnation of Jesus was through Joseph and Mary. Nothing to do with the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was son of God without a biological father. (Acts 9:20; Mat. 1:18)

Blessings in the Shekinah

Well,...'incarnational theology' has within it already the assumption of Deity taking on flesh, of divinity manifesting in the body of man, or as a man in the case of orthodox Christian theology, while the Catholic Mass is even a deeper dive into a communal partaking of the both the 'flesh' and 'divinity' of the Lord Jesus

It depends on how you view the constitution of Jesus, if was a human being like all others born in the normal fashion thru human sperm and egg, or had some divine component or aspect already inherent in him and/or bestowed upon him in his earthly ministry (as when the Holy Spirit or Christ-spirit anointed and empowered him for service at his baptism and God decreed "today I have begotten you"). Also note that for centuries church councils debated over 'Christology' (how much of Jesus was human, how much was divine? etc.)

I generally take the 'virgin birth'(VB) only figuratively as an mythical interpolation in a few gospel accounts, as we've challenged the whole Is. 7:14 passage elsewhere concerning the original languages (we hash it out here). I don't see the VB as being necessary in proving or supporting any divinity he may innately have or what is later conferred upon him, since 'God' can just as surely work thru 'natural-means' and 'laws' while adding a super-natural element into the process by His Spirit.

I see no significant value of affirming the VB in any creed as if to bolster Jesus divinity, as so many pagan myths or hero-epics of the ancients also claim among their legends. {we could allegorize this and say that only a pure(virgin) heart or soul can give birth to the Christ within, and this is all that is essential, being pure and holy before the Lord, we becoming his temple }. Otherwise, I keep this subject 'open' in my research and may assume a different point of view, if a better vision affords such.