ECT Suggestion to Knight

[Jerry Shugart]

The LORD will not impute one person's act of sin and its penalty to another person. Let us look at the following passage:

"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?" (Ezek.18:1-2).​

Charles Dyer wrote that "God asked Ezekiel about a proverb being circulated. This proverb--The Fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge--must have been well known in Israel because Jeremiah also quoted it (cf. Jer. 31:29-30). the proverb's point was that children were suffering because of their parents' sins...So these people were blaming God for punishing them unjustly (cf. Ezek. 18:25). God saw that this proverb had to be refuted...Blaming others for their misfortunes, the people were denying their own guilt. This was wrong because every individual is personally responsible to God...Those who are guilty will receive their own deserved punishment" (Charles H. Dyer, "Ezekiel," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; Old Testament, 1260).

Later we read the LORD's conclusion about this matter:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

According to the proponents of Original Sin all of Adam's sons bore the sin of their father Adam.

There are other places in the Bible where this truth is revealed:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut.24:16).​

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin" (2 Chron.25:4).​

Those who support the idea of Original Sin insist that Adam's death and guilt have been imputed to all his children!

Comments?

 

[Danoh]

That hit the nail on the head!

That word is used twice in the following verse and this verse alone destroys the myth of Original Sin:

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).​

The word "many" cannot mean "all." in this verse because the second time it is used it is impossible that the reference is to "all":

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

It is a fact that the second time the word "many" is used it cannot possibly be referring to "all" because the gift by grace has not abounded unto "all." Only those with faith receive the gift and not all people have faith.

According to the theory of Original Sin "all" and not just "many" are dead because of Adam's sin.

Actually, only those who sin are dead spiritually and infants and little children do not sin.

Your circular reasoning is ever one heck of an amusing wonder to observe the recurrent patterns of.

Lol - were you a would be serial killer and I an FBI Profiler, I'd have caught you with your very first post.

Gonna have to start calling you Grassy Knoll; after you're having solved for the unsolvable.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[glorydaz]

Your circular reasoning is ever one heck of an amusing wonder to observe the recurrent patterns of.

Lol - were you a would be serial killer and I an FBI Profiler, I'd have caught you with your very first post.

Gonna have to start calling you Grassy Knoll; after you're having solved for the unsolvable.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8.

And yet you're the one too blind to see what is clearly written.

 

[glorydaz]

The LORD will not impute one person's act of sin and its penalty to another person. Let us look at the following passage:

"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?" (Ezek.18:1-2).​

Charles Dyer wrote that "God asked Ezekiel about a proverb being circulated. This proverb--The Fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge--must have been well known in Israel because Jeremiah also quoted it (cf. Jer. 31:29-30). the proverb's point was that children were suffering because of their parents' sins...So these people were blaming God for punishing them unjustly (cf. Ezek. 18:25). God saw that this proverb had to be refuted...Blaming others for their misfortunes, the people were denying their own guilt. This was wrong because every individual is personally responsible to God...Those who are guilty will receive their own deserved punishment" (Charles H. Dyer, "Ezekiel," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; Old Testament, 1260).

Later we read the LORD's conclusion about this matter:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

According to the proponents of Original Sin all of Adam's sons bore the sin of their father Adam.

There are other places in the Bible where this truth is revealed:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut.24:16).​

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin" (2 Chron.25:4).​

Those who support the idea of Original Sin insist that Adam's death and guilt have been imputed to all his children!

Comments?

Sin entered the world because of Adam's sin. Sin is not something that is passed down like some vile disease from person to person. God made it very clear right from the beginning. What did He say to Cain?

Gen. 4:6-7 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

 

[john w]

Another meaning of that word is "yea, moreover" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon):

"For until law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Yea, moreover, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come" (Ro.5:13-14).​

You said that between Adam and Moses there was no law but you forget about the "law" written on the heart of which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:15). That was the only law in effect between Adam and Moses. And those between Adam and Moses were indeed being punished for sins against their conscience.

No, people croaked, from Adam-Moses, even though there was no law, and they had not committed the sin, that Adam committed. Why? "Nevertheless"-memorize it-Paul's point....People still died, even though there was no law, by which they could be charged with a sin/transgression...sin/transgression cannot be imputed, when there is no law. And yet, they croaked...Why?... spiritual death....."the wages of sin"(singular-not plural), is death. Spiritual death. Dead in their sins and trespasses, born in the image of Adam., "post cross," per Genesis 5:3 KJV.

Too much meat for you, kid...

 

[john w]

But if a righteousness of the Lord Jesus is imputed to people it would be His righteousness as a Man and not as God.

No, Christ is our righteousness, apart from the law, due to Him being the LORD God.



1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:



Galatians 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


You lied. You argue:

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus' righteousness was established by His keeping the law perfectly?

Yes, I do, as do other members of the boc. He is righteous, because He is the Lord God, and not because He fulfilled the law.

Now, kid...Do you deny that He was righteous, after He was born? We are tired of your games. Yes, or no? He had not kept any of the law, when he was born. Are you just stupid, or trying to convince others, and yourself, that you are always right?

Fold.

 

[john w]

Actually, only those who sin are dead spiritually and infants and little children do not sin.

And yet, they croak. Why? No law...no transgression....sin not imputed, where there is no law.People died, from Adam-Moses, when there was no law, by which they can be condemned. Why? "Cuz?"

 

[john w]

But if a righteousness of the Lord Jesus is imputed to people it would be His righteousness as a Man and not as God.

Memorize: The righteousness of God, without the law....

 

[john w]

Sin entered the world because of Adam's sin.

Correct.

Sin is not something that is passed down like some vile disease from person to person. God made it very clear right from the beginning. What did He say to Cain?

Gen. 4:6-7 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

Yes, it is. You confuse sin(singular), who we are "in Adam," with sins(plural).


The wages of sin(singular), is death.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Read, believe it-"in Adam"-spiritual death....Dead in Adam, even though we did not commit the sin(singular),that Adam committed.

Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sins can be forgiven...However, sin(the source of sins), cannot...It must be judged/condemned...





Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin(singular-my note) in the flesh:

Paul was not high, when he asserted that sins are forgiven(1 cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Colossians 2:13 KJV)but sin(singular), the sin nature, cannot be-it must be judged. If there was no sin nature, Romans 8:3 KJV would be superfluous, nonsensical.

Read it-"condemned sin in the flesh"....Who we are "in Adam," our sin nature, was judged at Calvary.

Again...The sin nature, who we are "in Adam," must be judged!!!!! Sins(plural), can be forgiven....Sin(singular), the sin nature, must be judged!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A forgiven thief, murderer, ....is still a thief, murderer....Get it? Forgiveness is not justification!!!

Get it? Hence....The Righteousness of God...

Wake up, members of the boc...details of the book, are critical.


My brilliance, and humility, stuns me, at times.

Time for a beer...Oops....I just had a bad thought....No sin nature? Hmpphhhfff!

 

[glorydaz]

Correct.


Yes, it is. You confuse sin(singular), who we are "in Adam," with sins(plural).


The wages of sin(singular), is death.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Read, believe it-"in Adam"-spiritual death....Dead in Adam, even though we did not commit the sin(singular),that Adam committed.

Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sins can be forgiven...However, sin(the source of sins), cannot...It must be judged/condemned...





Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin(singular-my note) in the flesh:

Paul was not high, when he asserted that sins are forgiven, but sin, the sin nature, cannot be-it must be judged. If there was no sin nature, Romans 8:3 KJV would be superfluous, nonsensical.


The sin nature, who we are "in Adam," must be judged!!!!! Sins(plural), can be forgiven....Sin(singular), the sin nature, must be judged!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wake up, members of the boc...details of the book, are critical.

Yes, you've schooled me on this in the past, and I realize this is something we disagree on.

I've decided that you just can't be right about EVERYTHING.

And if you're mean to me, I'll never speak to you again.

I see 1 Cor. 15 is speaking of our being earthy, and we die physically like Adam. We die physically like Adam, and we will rise physically as did the Lord from heaven. So, the whole idea of being IN ADAM has nothing to do with sin. We have earthly genes, and will go to the grave.

1 Cor. 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

I also believe human nature means we have a propensity to sin....a weakness in our flesh. In order for it to be otherwise, Jesus, Himself, could not be a true son of David. Notice how Paul says, "In the likeness of sinful flesh", and yet He had no sin.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;​

 

[glorydaz]

My brilliance, and humility, stuns me, at times.

Time for a beer...Oops....I just had a bad thought....No sin nature? Hmpphhhfff!

Ha...what sin?

You taught me that.

 

[tdhiggins]

The LORD will not impute one person's act of sin and its penalty to another person. Let us look at the following passage:

"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?" (Ezek.18:1-2).​

Charles Dyer wrote that "God asked Ezekiel about a proverb being circulated. This proverb--The Fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge--must have been well known in Israel because Jeremiah also quoted it (cf. Jer. 31:29-30). the proverb's point was that children were suffering because of their parents' sins...So these people were blaming God for punishing them unjustly (cf. Ezek. 18:25). God saw that this proverb had to be refuted...Blaming others for their misfortunes, the people were denying their own guilt. This was wrong because every individual is personally responsible to God...Those who are guilty will receive their own deserved punishment" (Charles H. Dyer, "Ezekiel," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; Old Testament, 1260).

Later we read the LORD's conclusion about this matter:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

According to the proponents of Original Sin all of Adam's sons bore the sin of their father Adam.

There are other places in the Bible where this truth is revealed:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut.24:16).​

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin" (2 Chron.25:4).​

Those who support the idea of Original Sin insist that Adam's death and guilt have been imputed to all his children!

Comments?

Romans 5:18

 

[tdhiggins]

What an idiot you are. You're preaching the letter of the law just like the pharisees did. :down:

You will not find one instance in the Bible of a baby or a child being accused of sin.

Psalm 51:1-5. I’m not an idiot. I believe the Bible instead of Pelagian heresy. I’m not preaching law. I’m preaching sanctification. Didn’t Jesus say that we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Not to earn salvation but because of regeneration. Having been born again, we walk in the good works which god prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10).

 

[tdhiggins]

Psalm 51:1-5. I’m not an idiot. I believe the Bible instead of Pelagian heresy. I’m not preaching law. I’m preaching sanctification. Didn’t Jesus say that we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Not to earn salvation but because of regeneration. Having been born again, we walk in the good works which god prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10).

I apologize for any typos, I wrote this ln my phone while trying to get ready for work. That last sentance shluld read “God” instead of “god.”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And yet, they croak. Why?

Because it is appointed that all people die physically (Heb.9:27). From the time when Adam ate of the forbidden tree the very tree that would allow people in their mortal bodies to live forever has been denied people (Gen.3:22-24).

There is no mystery about this. Some people die earlier than others but it is not because Adam's sin and death in sin have been imputed to them.

No law...no transgression....sin not imputed, where there is no law.People died, from Adam-Moses, when there was no law, by which they can be condemned. Why? "Cuz?"

Do you really believe that there was no "law" between Adam and Moses even though all the people during that time did in fact have the law which is written on their heart, the law of which the conscience bears witness?

Many of those who support the theory of Original Sin understand what you don't understand, that people between Adam and Moses were sinning against their conscience. Thomas Schreiner understands that those who lived between Adam and Moses were judged for violating the law inscribed in their hearts:

"Those who lived in the era between Adam and Moses," he says, "were accountable for their sins, so that they were condemned because they violated God's moral norms. Their sin was counted against them and thus they were judged. Paul himself teaches the same truth in 2:12, when he claims that 'all those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law.'...Gentiles who did not know or possess the Mosaic law were judged for violating the law inscribed on their hearts (2:14-15)...Romans 2:12 is of paramount importance, for it prevents us from adopting a mistaken view of 5:12-14" (Thomas R. Schreiner, "Original Sin and Original Death-Romans 5:12-19" in <i>Adam, the Fall and Original Sin</i>, 279-280).​

In his commentary on Romans 5:13 we can see that Albert Barnes came to the same conclusion:

"But sin is not imputed - Is not charged against people, or they are not held guilty of it where there is no law. This is a self-evident proposition, for sin is a violation of law; and if there is no law, there can be no wrong. Assuming this as a self-evident proposition, the connection is, that there must have been a law of some kind; a 'law written on their hearts,' since sin was in the world, and people could not be charged with sin, or treated as sinners, unless there was some law" [emphasis added] (Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible, Commentary on Romans 5).​

Do you really think that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorraha, who lived between the time of Adam and Moses, were not judged because of their own sins with what is said in the following passage in view?:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Memorize: The righteousness of God, without the law....

Memorize:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

Your argument is that all of Adam's descendants bear his iniquity because his sin and death in sin have been imputed to them.

 

[meshak]

Psalm 51:1-5. I’m not an idiot. I believe the Bible instead of Pelagian heresy. I’m not preaching law. I’m preaching sanctification. Didn’t Jesus say that we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Not to earn salvation but because of regeneration. Having been born again, we walk in the good works which god prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10).

right on, amen.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And yet, they croaked...Why?... spiritual death....."the wages of sin"(singular-not plural), is death. Spiritual death. Dead in their sins and trespasses, born in the image of Adam., "post cross," per Genesis 5:3 KJV.

Yes, the wages of sin is spiritual death. And the passage is speaking about people receiving those wages when they sin and not because of Adam's sin:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21-23).​

It is easy to see that the spiritual death spoken of in this passage happens because of people's own sins and not because Adam's sin and death in sin has been imputed to them. And since all people die spiritually when they sin then that can only mean that at one time or another all people were alive spiritually. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

And the only way that all people can be alive spiritually is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive. That fact alone destroys the theory of Original sin which teaches that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead. If you are right then we are supposed to believe that infants emerge from the womb dead spiritually but in spite of that those spiritually dead infants are the LORD's reward:

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).​

We are supposed to believe that little children are dead spiritually and therefore banned from entering the kingdom even though the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom belongs to little children (Mt.19:14) and He said the following about them:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:18

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Do you think that the free gift was given to all men unto justification of life?

 

[tdhiggins]

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).​

Do you think that the free gift was given to all men unto justification of life?

Jerry, I keep on asking you for the same thing and you are unable to provide it. Justifications comes through union with Christ which comes by faith. This is EXPLICITLY said in the Scriptures, meaning the Scriptures CLEARLY AND PLAINLY say that one must have faith in order to be justified. Now. Please show me ONE VERSE that CLEARLY, PLAINLY, and EXPLICITLY says that I have to do ANYTHING in order to be united with Adam.