ECT Studying how the NT uses the OT

[heir]

Which one of your two gospels were these Romans saved by before Paul wrote to them?

What an odd question. If they were "saved" before hearing and believing Paul's gospel there would no reason for Paul to make mention of them in his prayers, making request that he might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto them (Romans 1:9-10 KJV), to long to see them to impart unto them some spiritual gift, to the end they may be established (Romans 1:10-11 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV). I've no doubt that they ended up getting saved as they were of the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 8:29-30 KJV, Romans 11:1-6 KJV).

 

[Danoh]

The only ignorance comes from Darby followers such as yourself who claim there are going to be animal sacrifices for sin atonement in the future.

(Heb 10:12) But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Like I said, only someone who is intellectually dishonest could read the above verse, and then claim there's going to be animal sacrifices for sin atonement in the future.

How much plainer does it have to be for you?

That rules me out - I've never studied it out, nor even read much about it.

I'll get around to it, I'm sure; as the issue is a fascinating one, as are many, many others.

You'll just have to rest in my having defended you when I believed it was warranted - you'll just have to rest in that for your so called mind reading about whether or not I am being dishonest about my ignorance of this issue you appear to need to so salivate at the mouth about.

Well, that, and Darby...

Have at it; neither of us is the issue.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

Start here:

http://www.amazon.com/Commentary-New-Testament-Use-Old/dp/0801026938

http://josephmoreland.weebly.com/up..._interprets_the_old_testament-dr._collins.pdf

1. Identify the OT reference. Is it a quotation or allusion? If it is an allusion, then there must be validation that it is an allusion, judging by the criteria discussed in the preceding chapter.

2. Analyze the broad NT context where the OT reference occurs.

3. Analyze the OT context both broadly and immediately, especially thoroughly interpreting the paragraph in which the quotation or allusion occurs.

4. Survey the use of the OT text in early and late Judaism that might be of relevance to the NT appropriation of the OT text.

5. Compare the texts (including their textual variants): NT, LXX, MT, and targums, early Jewish citations (DSS, the Pseudepigrapha, Josephus, Philo). Underline or color-code the various differences.

6. Analyze the author’s textual use of the OT. (Which text does the author rely on, or is the author making his own rendering, and how does this bear on the interpretation of the OT text?)

7. Analyze the author’s interpretative (hermeneutical) use of the OT.

8. Analyze the author’s theological use of the OT.

9. Analyze the author’s rhetorical use of the OT.


AMR

 

[john w]

The only ignorance comes from Darby followers such as yourself who claim there are going to be animal sacrifices for sin atonement in the future

That's all the punk has-"Darby." That's his bullet spam, when he is laughed at, by most of TOL.

Tettie the Clownie.

 

[tetelestai]

What an odd question. If they were "saved" before hearing and believing Paul's gospel there would no reason for Paul to make mention of them in his prayers

So does that mean you think the Romans weren't saved before Paul wrote to them?

I've no doubt that they ended up getting saved as they were of the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 8:29-30 KJV, Romans 11:1-6 KJV).

(Rom 11:13 KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Were Gentiles part of the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew?

 

[tetelestai]

That rules me out - I've never studied it out, nor even read much about it.

I'll get around to it, I'm sure; as the issue is a fascinating one, as are many, many others.

You'll just have to rest in my having defended you when I believed it was warranted - you'll just have to rest in that for your so called mind reading about whether or not I am being dishonest about my ignorance of this issue you appear to need to so salivate at the mouth about.

Actually I'm not surprised at all.

Most Dispensationalists have been taught that after the rapture and 7 Year Trib, there is going to be an earthly kingdom with a temple in Jerusalem.

They have been taught this theory with verses from the OT.

A study of the book of Hebrews will show that Christ Jesus fulfilled all those prophecies, and that there is no way the prophecies from the OT could happen in the future.

The animal sacrifices for sin atonement is the most blatant example of how impossible Futurism is, and the best example of how Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

 

[Danoh]

Actually I'm not surprised at all.

Most Dispensationalists have been taught that after the rapture and 7 Year Trib, there is going to be an earthly kingdom with a temple in Jerusalem.

They have been taught this theory with verses from the OT.

A study of the book of Hebrews will show that Christ Jesus fulfilled all those prophecies, and that there is no way the prophecies from the OT could happen in the future.

The animal sacrifices for sin atonement is the most blatant example of how impossible Futurism is, and the best example of how Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

No. You are never surprised. You know every thing.

That is the way of ignorance in its own conceits; this way of yours.

You are so darned irritating. You really are.

You assert all have been taught this and that by others as if you are somehow the fly on everyone's wall the world over.

That is so woefully ignorant on your part. It really is. Plenty of people throughout history have arrived at similar understandings in many areas of life - who never even heard of someone else having arrived at a similar conclusion until they published their own, or read about it centuries later IF it survived to begin with; and especially against overwhelming opposition.

Rather, sameness in understandings just as often happens when two people never having heard of one another happen to look at the same recurrent patterns.

Are you really that ignorant about this simple, every day phenomena in all areas of life that you allow yourself the inane luxury of concluding that because many do parrot others, that all are doing so?

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no respect for your kind of one size fits all narrow mindedness, in its arrogance and the bigotry it results in.

Some on here, for example, hold to a view about Romans I'd never heard of until I began visiting this site.

Must not be widely taught, that it might be widely parroted.

But do you pause to think on that. No. You are too far gone in your one size fits all and its resulting bigotry to see these kinds of holes in your arguments.

As a result, the only reason you get something right when you do is because even a stopped clock ends up at "right" twice a day.

Why, you fool?

Due the recurrent pattern that "right" consists of, and thus, that makes running into it sooner or later, inevitable.

Sheesh - get yourself a sound mind already...

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you believe what the Apostle Paul said in the following:

(1 Cor 10:11 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Why would Paul tell the Corinthians it was the end of the ages, if the end of the ages was 2,000 years and counting away?

Yes,

ends (plural)

 

[Interplanner]

No its singular, however, ages is plural, but that is probably due to being about Dan 9's times/ages/periods/sevens. Likewise Heb 9's "culmination of the ages."

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No its singular, however, ages is plural, but that is probably due to being about Dan 9's times/ages/periods/sevens. Likewise Heb 9's "culmination of the ages."

It says ends.

There is more than one world.

"By whom he made the worlds."

 

[Interplanner]

re knowledge of Hebrews.
The end of the obsolete system should be clear to most readers (if it is not, I don't really know how a person could miss it).

But what is hidden a bit more cryptically is that the Melchizedek priesthood trumps the Aaronic. Christ's pedigree is Melchi (King) Zedek (Righteousness). This causes the other fact of change and replacement to come into existence.

This doctrine should be combined with Gal 3:17 in which the Law was thought (by Judaism and neo-Judaism of the time) to have voided or replaced the Promise which is the Gospel and is transcultural and worldwide. Abraham had that Gospel of imputed righteousness preached to him (2nd paragraph of ch 3).

Once again, the Bible is structure A-B-A. In which:
A is the message of the Gospel of righteousness by faith for all nations
B is the period of Israel under the Law to show a negative result, overall

The Bible does not come back to B in the NT. The OT visions that sound like were about Christ. 'You search the Scriptures and think that in them you have life. It is these that testify of me.'

 

[Interplanner]

SaultoP:
ta telae ton aionon.

Collective singular in NIV and TEV. The Analytical Lexicon says of 'telae' in I Cor 10:11: "the issue or final stage." BAG literary lexicon classes it as "the last part, the conclusion". The emphasis is not on other places or times or multiple stories but on the gathering of a plot to one connected conclusion. If you know Dan 9's times/ages/periods you know that he said 7 things were occurring at once, and that is so much closer in overall Biblical data to what you are saying, there is no comparison.

While we're at it, how many other places is the Bible about? How many other worlds?

 

[Danoh]

Lol, apparently, STP, Inter thinks he is dealing with two rather clueless guys in you and John W.

Boy is he in for a surprise, lol

Of course, now he'll say something predictable, ha, ha, ha.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, when a person sees a very literal translation with the odd outcome of "ends of the ages" and doesn't seem to have lexicons to check, I think then that it is time to get them out.

Even if it really, really was supposed to plural ends, we would still not be led to think of other worlds in either the I Cor 10 or Heb 9 contexts. We would be thinking of several stories ending all the previous ages. Making the current age, when written in the NT era, that much more important than ours and than supposed B episodes to come.

 

[heir]

Lol, apparently, STP, Inter thinks he is dealing with two rather clueless guys in you and John W.

Boy is he in for a surprise, lol

Of course, now he'll say something predictable, ha, ha, ha.

And he apparently thinks they are Bible correctors such as he. LOL

 

[heir]

Yes, when a person sees a very literal translation with the odd outcome of "ends of the ages" and doesn't seem to have lexicons to check, I think then that it is time to get them out.

Spoken like a true Bible corrector.

 

[tetelestai]

Yes,

ends (plural)

Ok, Why would Paul tell the Corinthians it was the "ends" of the ages, if the ends of the ages was 2,000 years and counting away?

 

[tetelestai]

Spoken like a true Bible corrector.

You mean like when you tell us all the highlighted words in the below verses from the King James Bible don't really mean what they say?

(Heb 1:2 KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(1 John 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Danoh]

Ok, Why would Paul tell the Corinthians it was the "ends" of the ages, if the ends of the ages was 2,000 years and counting away?

Because the ends of the ages 2,000 years and counting away was not what Paul was talking about.

That is only what you and yours conclude we think that passage is talking about due to how you and yours conclude something and then read it into everything else, whether it be your own school you are looking at your things from, or your own school you are looking at another's from.

You guys should open a shoe store kind of along the Payless model.

Call it "One Size Fits All."

Your motto could be "We accept Partial payments," lol

 

[heir]

You mean like

I mean that interplanner is just another fool who thinks he has the authority to correct the pure and preserved words of the Lord. :loser: