ECT ST. AUGUSTINE ON THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST

[Sonnet]

Please cite the biblical text which states that "Everything believed and done by a Christian must be explicitly stated in the Bible." [SOURCE][SOURCE]

There is nothing explicit in that regard.

But how is to be "taken" in order to be TRUE? The mere ability to offer an alternative interpretation hardly qualifies as an argument.

It's not an alternative view. It's a view. You may privately consider what you will, but you cannot impose it.

...unless it happens to be Divine TRUTH. Here you're merely parroting what you've been fed by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, whose opinions---since it is decidedly NOT that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.---carry no doctrinal authority whatsoever.

Since you recognise the genuine non-Catholic believer, then you cannot claim such authority.

 

[Cruciform]

There is nothing explicit in that regard.

It is a double standard, then, for you to demand explicit proof-texts for Catholic beliefs and/or practices.

It's not an alternative view. It's a view.

...one which is alternative to the Catholic doctrine.

You may privately consider what you will, but you cannot impose it.

That depends. If the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.---and I've already shown that it is---then the teachings of that Church are qualitatively infallible, authoritative, and binding upon believers. Do you deny that the teachings of Christ's one historic Church---which Jesus himself equates with his very own doctrines in truth and authority (Lk. 10:16; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15)---are obligatory for followers of Christ?

Since you recognise the genuine non-Catholic believer, then you cannot claim such authority.

See just above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Sonnet]

It is a double standard, then, for you to demand explicit proof-texts for Catholic beliefs and/or practices.

No - just don't force your belief about the bread and wine - you keep claiming authority when you don't have it. Genuine believers don't think as you...and you allow that.

...one which is alternative to the Catholic doctrine.

And your view is an alternative to non-Catholics. It's hardly a matter of salvation what one infers regarding the bread and wine. We remember Christ by it. Reverently. Period.

That depends. If the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.---and I've already shown that it is---

No, you have admitted genuine Christianity exists outside that group.

Then the teachings of that Church are qualitatively infallible, authoritative, and binding upon believers.

Come on...

Do you deny that the teachings of Christ's one historic Church---which Jesus himself equates with his very own doctrines in truth and authority (Lk. 10:16; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15)---are obligatory for followers of Christ?

Judas was sent out as well.

The church of the living God includes those you admit are non-Catholics.

 

[Cruciform]

No - just don't force your belief about the bread and wine - you keep claiming authority when you don't have it.

No, not "forcing," but arguing and defending the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church as divine truth. And no, I have no personal authority, but Christ's one historic Catholic Church possesses the very authority of Jesus Christ himself (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15).

And your view is an alternative to non-Catholics.

Given that the various "non-Catholic" opinions weren't invented until the Catholic Church had already been in existence for fifteen centuries, and that the Catholic doctrine was the original Christian teaching, it is more accurate to say that the myriad Protestant opinions represent alternatives to the authentic Catholic position.

It's hardly a matter of salvation what one infers regarding the bread and wine. We remember Christ by it. Reverently. Period.

This is merely the entirely non-authoritative opinion taught to you by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect which, as such, possesses no doctrinal authority whatsoever---unless you care to demonstrate that your chosen Protestant sect is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D...? No? Then my observations stand.

No, you have admitted genuine Christianity exists outside that group.

The extreme exception that proves the rule. The normative means by which God saves is through the ministry, teaching, and sacraments of Christ's one historic Church.

Come on...

You claim, then, that Christ's own Spirit-led Church---operating in Christ's own name and by his very authority---could deliver doctrines which are fallible, non-authoritative, and non-binding upon believers...? :doh:

The church of the living God includes those you admit are non-Catholics.

Yes...who are only saved due to their sacramental connection to Christ's one historic Catholic Church, and for no other reason. In this sense, no one is saved outside of the Catholic Church (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 838).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

>BUMP< for Sonnet.

 

[Totton Linnet]

or just show us the first succession...it must be recorded.

Bump for Cruce

 

[Cruciform]

Bump for Cruce

HERE you go.

 

[Cruciform]

Sonnet, therefore, has withdrawn from the discussion, a tacit admission of the already-demonstrated fact that the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[dodge]

Sonnet, therefore, has withdrawn from the discussion, a tacit admission of the already-demonstrated fact that the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).

You really believe the HISTORY of the RCC honors God ? What about killing all that the RCC disagreed with, molesting children by priests, bowing to and honoring IDOLS, and changing and ignoring God's word to follow man made TRADITIONS ?

 

[radind]

Sonnet, therefore, has withdrawn from the discussion, a tacit admission of the already-demonstrated fact that the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).

I am a newcomer and have not seen all the prior discussion. However I do not agree with you that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.I think that Jesus founded His Church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Sonnet]

Sonnet, therefore, has withdrawn from the discussion, a tacit admission of the already-demonstrated fact that the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; cf. 1 Tim. 3:15).

I just thought we were going round in circles.

 

[Cruciform]

You really believe the HISTORY of the RCC honors God ? What about killing all that the RCC disagreed with, molesting children by priests...

Your inaccurate descriptions aside, I'll simply post the following observations:

The Catholic Church has always been burdened with scandal, starting with Judas’ betrayal and the other disciples’ abandonment of Jesus Christ during His passion and death. From (relatively few) bad popes to lay members committing evil acts, members of the Church have been engaging in scandalous behavior for her entire 2000-year history. Scripture refers to some of this scandalous behavior. Some of the Thessalonians refused to work, were living idle lives, and were overly concerned with other people’s business. The scandalous behavior of individuals in the Church extends down to today’s priest sex scandal. This is a tragic chapter in the history of the Church, but does this prove that the Church is not the Church founded by and upon Jesus Christ? Of course not!

The Church has been full of sinners and saints from the beginning and Jesus never promised to protect the Church from sinners. In fact, He prepared us for it with the parable of the weeds and the wheat (Mt 13:24–30). This showed us that in the Church (the Kingdom of God), the devil would sow evil seeds that would grow with the wheat until the end of time. Then the weeds will be separated from the wheat and thrown into the fire. It had to be done this way, because the sinners of today are the saints of tomorrow and only God knows who will end up where.

God gave each of us free will because He desires our true love. In order for true love to exist one has to choose it freely. This has to be a choice for rational creatures, with the option to choose either way, and to make wrong choices. God could have made us into obedient biological robots, as brute animals are, but this would not be love.

We need not despair. The Church has great sinners and great saints in it and always will, but Christ will preserve her from [doctrinal] error, for she is His bride. She will never fail to bring us Christ, even if we fail to receive Him.​

http://streetevangelization.com/objections/​

Regarding the clergy abuse scandal, see THIS.

...bowing to and honoring IDOLS, and changing and ignoring God's word to follow man made TRADITIONS ?

Straw Man Fallacies. Try again.

 

[Cruciform]

I am a newcomer and have not seen all the prior discussion. However I do not agree with you that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.I think that Jesus founded His Church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I recommend reading the OP, as well as Posts #12 and #15.

 

[radind]

:darwinsm:... You've been laughably deluded by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect(s). It is a simple and straightforward documented fact that St. Augustine was fully Catholic in every sense of the term, a bishop and scholar who believed, taught, and passionately defended the following distinctively Catholic doctrines, among others:

• baptismal regeneration
• Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist
• the divine authority of Tradition, equal w/ Scripture as Divine Revelation (God's word)*
• infant baptism
• the primacy and authority of the papacy
• the role of good works in salvation**
• papal and apostolic succession
• the 73-book biblical canon
• the intermediate state of purgatory
• the invocation of the intercession of past Saints (Communion of Saints)
• the religious use of sacred images and objects in worship and devotion
• verbal confession of sins to a priest for absolution
• the Mass as a genuine sacrifice

So much for your sect's cockeyed imaginary take on St. Augustine.

__________
*Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola scriptura.
** Thus, Augustine utterly rejected sola fide.

I have read through the thread and still have a different take on the New Testament. My understanding is that Jesus Christ founded His Church and that there is no one between the individual Christian and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Peter 2:5 ,I Timothy 2:5

 

[Cruciform]

I have read through the thread and still have a different take on the New Testament.

No doubt you will tend to hold to the familiar opinions that you have been taught by your particular recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

My understanding is that Jesus Christ founded His Church and that there is no one between the individual Christian and the Lord Jesus Christ. I Peter 2:5 ,I Timothy 2:5

Again, this is the particular ecclesiology that you have been taught by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

Regarding Christ as Mediator, see THIS and THIS. God bless.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No doubt you will tend to hold to the familiar opinions that you have been taught by your particular recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.


Again, this is the particular ecclesiology that you have been taught by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

Regarding Christ as Mediator, see THIS and THIS. God bless.

Oh, that's right, the Pope is "infallible" when sitting on his throne, correct? So, whatever he tells you is gospel, right?

 

[radind]

No doubt you will tend to hold to the familiar opinions that you have been taught by your particular recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.


Again, this is the particular ecclesiology that you have been taught by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

Regarding Christ as Mediator, see THIS and THIS. God bless.

No, I make every effort to follow the Bible and do not agree with your assertions on 'man made' religions and think that many ( if not most) of the problems with Christianity are due to the large 'man-made' organizations ( including the Catholic church).

I doubt that we will agree on much.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Cruc is a dyed in the wool Catholic. Utterly brainwashed by "The Church."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Message (Gospel) that the "Ascended Christ" gave to the Apostle Paul is the ONLY Gospel for today in this "Dispensation of Grace."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Catholics are "way off" in their presentation of the written word of God. (The Bible.)