Cruciform
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Thus, you merely prove my statement in Post #49 above.
ECT ST. AUGUSTINE ON THE TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED BY CHRIST
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Cruciform
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If by "saved" you mean "initially justified," then "salvation" in this case is confined only to one's initial conversion at the very beginning of his Christian life. It says nothing whatsoever about the very next moment or of his entire life following that initial moment of justification. "Salvation" is a rather broad term which covers the totality of one's life, and not merely the initial event that begins it. One must maintain his condition of justification (that is, the state of grace) throughout the course of his life, for only by dying in a state of grace (righteousness) can he actually be said to be "saved" in an ultimate sense. In short, it isn't over until its over.
In order to help his children maintain the soul in the state of grace, God has provided certain spiritual resources---various means of grace---by which the Christian may be enabled to remain in a state of grace, as well as be conformed to the image of his Lord, Jesus Christ. These include the Sacraments of the Church, foremost among them the Eucharist, along with Baptism, Confirmation, Reconciliation (Penance, Confession), Holy Orders, Matrimony, and Anointing of the Sick. By these spiritual means, one is far more equipped to remain in the Christian faith throughout one's life, and to end this life in a state of grace, thus ultimately being saved.
Other things which are lacking in the Protestant sects that are present in Christ's one historic Catholic Church include the Sacred Liturgy (Public Worship/Prayers of the Faithful), sacramentals, the Communion of Saints, the Ancient Creeds, etc.
Therefore, the Christian life isn't just about "gettin' saved," as though initial justification is the end of things. Indeed, it is only the beginning, and one must remain in a state of grace for life in order to be saved in the end. Christ's one historic Catholic Church is far, far more spiritually equipped to bring one to salvation in an ultimate sense than are any of the recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
~A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved~
Perseverance of the Saints is the doctrine you are looking for. Also known as OSAS or Eternal Security.
Reformed Christianity ™
John Calvin gives his regards
Sonnet
New member
~A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved~
Perseverance of the Saints is the doctrine you are looking for. Also known as OSAS or Eternal Security.
Reformed Christianity ™
John Calvin gives his regards
And we note that since you can't substantiate LA with but one explicit verse from scripture then the whole theology edifice crumbles.
I already showed you, and you admitted it, and now you're saying otherwise again.
I'm about to just put you on my ignore list. I see nothing but drivel time and time again.
Sonnet
New member
Are you asserting that it is not possible to remain saved in this ultimate sense if one remains outside of the Catholic Church?
Sonnet
New member
You provided scriptures from which you INFER limited atonement. Anyone can make such extrapolations. I asked for an explicit verse.
You will never find one.
The preferred recourse for consistent Calvinist when presented with the scriptural reality about the atonement.
Sonnet
New member
Cite the post please.
There are many verses where it is expressed that Christ laid down his life for his sheep, that he will save his people, that he died for many, anon anon. None of these things indicate that he died for all men.
Romans 8:31-33
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
~Abra Kadabra~
Your 'scriptural reality' is a platitude based not on teachings of the Bible, but laymen or poetic proclamations. Calvinism is based on the actual teachings within the scriptures. What is taught.
The preferred recourse for you and others like you is to basically act like morons
Sonnet
New member
John 10 is a parable Jesus directs at the Pharisees to highlight that they are bad shepherds. The good shepherd dying for his sheep is contrasted with their couldn't-care-less attitude. That is the context - and such good shepherding says nothing about any supposes limitation of your imagined doctrine since it's definitely not the context.
The fact that Jesus enjoins belief in Him through belief in His miracles to those He describes as not His sheep in verse 38 settles the argument.
Matthew 1:21 - Jesus came to the Jews. And?
Romans 5?
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
How many were made sinners Crucible?
You didn't actually make an argument to support your claim.
Jesus was delivered up for those that believe Him - and? Says nothing about any limit. Have already cited a whole bunch of scriptures that EXPLICITLY state that all men were provided for. No response.
You're 'scriptural reality' is a platitude based not on teachings of the Bible, but laymen or poetic proclamations. Calvinism is based on the actual teachings within the scriptures. What is taught.
The preferred recourse for you and others like you is to basically act like morons
Ad hominems are logical fallacies.
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Cruciform
New member
Or not.
A self-proclaimed "reformer" who only managed to stumble onto the scene after the one historic Church had already existed and flourished for a full millennium-and-a-half, and who possessed no more authority to change the established teachings of the Church than had, for example, Arius, Pelagius, or Sabellius? No thanks, not impressed. :yawn:
Cruciform
New member
No it is indeed "possible," since God is merciful. It just isn't as probable.
In any case, given that the Christian faith resides most fully in the Catholic Church, and that the Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and is the Church for which he died---what possible rationale could one offer that would justify knowingly refusing to join oneself to Christ's own historic Church? Indeed, what is your excuse for doing so?
Sonnet
New member
That's the hijacked version of OSAS, Calvinism does not teach that sort of eternal security. Reformed doctrine holds that a person doesn't fall in and out of salvation, only that becoming apostate or wicked means that a person was never saved to begin with. Maybe you should become more familiar with the terminology: Perseverance of the Saints. It is not 'salvation after a conceived notion'.
So what? It certainly existed, I don't know about 'flourished'- the world flourished, and the Roman Church just assumed it's own pretentious authority until people got tired of it. And then the historic Reformation happened.
Sonnet
New member
Cruciform
New member
Rather, conclusion.
Ignoring the cited facts won't somehow make them disappear. Again:
Given that the Christian faith resides most fully in the Catholic Church, and that the Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and is the Church for which he died---what possible rationale could one offer that would justify knowingly refusing to join oneself to Christ's own historic Church? Indeed, what is your excuse for doing so?
How about answering the question?
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Ask Mr. Religion
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Asked and answered affirmatively...once one divests the usual Romanistic historical mythologies from the question. :AMR:
Rather than the Romanist tactic of changing the creeds, let's stick with that which has been received by the Church militant: "...one, holy catholic and apostolic Church"
Nothing in the word catholic (i.e., universal) means post-Trent Roman Catholicism. Rome had its chance to reform itself in the fourteenth century, but from Trent onward chose the path to apostasy, thereby relinquishing itself of any past claims to historic Christianity.
Step off the Romanist treadmill and return to the Bride of Our Lord.
AMR
Cruciform
New member
QUESTION: When the Nicene Creed was formulated in 325 A.D.---at the thoroughly Catholic Council of Nicaea---what exactly were the beliefs and teachings of the "church" that they referred to in the Creed, and do they represent the invented doctrines of Protestantism, or are they distinctively "Catholic" teachings which the Church still believes and teaches today?
Shall I go ahead and post a list of beliefs held and defended by the "Church" which composed the Nicene Creed? :think:
So much for your imaginary romanticism of the early Christian Church. The "mythology," it seems, is entirely yours.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Sonnet
New member
There are many verses where it is expressed that Christ laid down his life for his sheep, that he will save his people, that he died for many, anon anon. None of these things indicate that he died for all men.
Romans 8:31-33
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
~Abra Kadabra~
Your 'scriptural reality' is a platitude based not on teachings of the Bible, but laymen or poetic proclamations. Calvinism is based on the actual teachings within the scriptures. What is taught.
The preferred recourse for you and others like you is to basically act like morons
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ED-BY-CHRIST&p=4727933&viewfull=1#post4727933