ECT 'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[bibleverse2]

Tongues are not gibberish and biblically it refers to know languages.

Not always (1 Corinthians 14:2).

See post #2 above.

Why would you need to speak in gibberish to yourself or God?

Tongues unknown to men are not gibberish to the human speaker's spirit (1 Corinthians 14:14) or to God (1 Corinthians 14:2).

If a Christian has received an unknown tongue (1 Corinthians 14:2,4), it is okay for him to pray and sing to God both in his natural language with mental understanding and in an unknown tongue by his spirit without mental understanding (1 Corinthians 14:14-15). For it is okay for a Christian to build up both his spirit (1 Corinthians 14:4,14) and his mind (Romans 12:2) and not just one or the other. A Christian's spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23) can know things which his mind does not yet consciously know (1 Corinthians 14:14).

Uninterpreted, unknown tongues can serve as a sign to non-Christians (1 Corinthians 14:22-23) of their inability to understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), just as Jesus Christ's uninterpreted parables spoken to those who were not His disciples served the same purpose (Matthew 13:13-15). But this is not the only purpose for uninterpreted, unknown tongues, for they also serve to edify the spirits of those Christians who speak them privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2,4,14), just as interpreted, unknown tongues serve to edify a whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5,12-13,26).

Both non-Christians and Spiritually-"unlearned" Christians see uninterpreted, unknown tongues as "mad" (1 Corinthians 14:23) in the sense of crazy, while they do not see prophesying as crazy (1 Corinthians 14:24). For they cannot understand uninterpreted, unknown tongues (1 Corinthians 14:2), but they can understand prophesying (1 Corinthians 14:25).

Christians who have been given the Spiritual gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) are the prophets of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:29-33; 1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11). When they prophesy, they speak words directly from God, just as when the true prophets of Old Testament Israel prophesied, they spoke words directly from God (e.g. Jeremiah 26:12-13).

But the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) does not take away free will. Christians with the gift of prophecy can still wrongly use their free will to sometimes speak something forth as a "prophecy" which is just their own idea, or an idea which they like a lot and are sure must be from God.

Also, prophecies given forth in a church meeting can be "judged" (1 Corinthians 14:29b) in the same way that we might judge a "tradition" which has been passed down in the Church.

For there are incorrect traditions from fallible men (Colossians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:18) which contradict God's Word (Mark 7:13). And there are correct traditions from God's Word (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, John 8:31b). There are also man-made traditions which, even though they do not contradict God's Word, they go beyond it (cf. 1 Corinthians 4:6b), and so they are not binding on Christians, who can choose for themselves whether or not they will follow such traditions (cf. Romans 14:5-6).

 

[Cntrysner]

Strive to edify Christ, His words and his finished work and you will do well....is more than that needed?

 

[Cntrysner]

The definition of tongues, its purpose and experience occurred at pentecost. It required no interpretation, they all of many tongues understood in their own language as it was spoken. If it doesn't occur in that manner it is not original and the Spirit is not working as it did then.

 

[bibleverse2]

Strive to edify Christ, His words and his finished work and you will do well....is more than that needed?

While tongues are not required for salvation (1 Corinthians 12:30), the purpose of even unknown tongues is to edify Christians (1 Corinthians 14:4-5).

 

[andyc]

See here.

 

[DAN P]

We find that the scripture shows us that it did occur, but how can a Christian tell if 'Speaking in Tongues' is being given by the Holy Spirit or it has come by a false spirit. Just because a person starts to mutter, mumble or shout unknown 'words' doesn't necessarily mean that they are being given them by the Holy Spirit. People with dementia, or drunks and the insane mumble and shout unknown words, are they being given spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues. Of course not, so how can one tell if the source is from the Holy Spirit, or from another origin.

There are many references to speaking in tongues in the Bible, and we find the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. Now, you have to understand that at the time there were Jews and non-Jews who came to Jerusalem and from nearby regions who spoke another languages. To communicate with others with different languages, the early Christians needed to have been given a gift so they could understand the Gospel, and the scripture clearly shows that happening. There are many times being able to speak to others in their own tongue or language was very important as we see in the instance when Paul addressed the Jews to give them a understanding of who he was.

Acts 22
1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Now in Acts 2 when the Apostles speak in tongues it makes if very clear why and what they were speaking.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The key part here is there were coming to Jerusalem, 'Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.' We clearly see the purpose and the actual use of speaking in tongues, it was not just babbling or muttering of foolish nonsense, it had a specific purpose and directed for the understanding of those from other languages and lands, as they heard 'speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.'

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason, is it spiritually the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church.

Keep in mind it happened in the early church, the deception of Montanism known by its adherents as the 'New Prophecy', and its followers claimed the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They spoke in ecstatic visions and utterances and claimed they received the prophetic gift from the prophets. It originated in Phrygia, and spread rapidly to other regions in the Roman Empire and persisted in some isolated places into the 6th century. It was a false speaking in tongues, and was recognized as such, yet spread everywhere and fooled many Christians till it was stamped out.

Hi and this discussion about will only die out when the B O C has been taken out of the way 2 Thess 2;1 , THE Greek word COMING / PAROUSIA has come !!

1 Cor 13:8 should stop tongues and the cause of division as verse 8 says GLOSSIA / LANGUAGES have been stopped as the Greek verb THEY SHALL FAIL / KATARGEO is kin the Greek FUTURE TENSE !

Another problem is that many do not see the THE NEAR VIEW of Acts 2 and the FAR VIEW OF Mark 16:16-18 and that is why the confusion of today !!

dan p

 

[bibleverse2]

Hi and this discussion about will only die out when the B O C has been taken out of the way 2 Thess 2;1 . . .

Are you referring to the following verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

If so, note that the restrainer of the future Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan himself at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer cannot be God's Holy Spirit (as is sometimes claimed) because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b) while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because He is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer cannot be the Church (the body of Christ: Colossians 1:18) or the Holy Spirit in the Church because the Church will not be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30, Proverbs 2:21-22). Also, there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Christians in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with Christians during the future Tribulation.

Also, the Tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient Christians can have the comfort of God's Holy Spirit at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Hi and this discussion about will only die out when the B O C has been taken out of the way 2 Thess 2;1 , THE Greek word COMING / PAROUSIA has come !!

Note that Jesus Christ's future parousia (coming), His future apocalypse (revelation), and His future epiphany (appearing), all refer to the same thing: His future, Second Coming.

For His future "parousia" (G3952) is His second "coming" when He will resurrect and change the obedient part of the Church (of all times) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), when He will resurrect and then catch up together (rapture) the Church into the clouds to hold a meeting with Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), when He will gather together (rapture) the Church and destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). This will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7,20) and right before the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

And Jesus' future "apocalypse" (apokalupsis: G0602) is His future "revelation" which the Church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), His second "coming" which the Church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7), His future "appearing" which the Church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:7).

And Jesus' future "epiphany" (epiphaneia: G2015) is His future "appearing" which the Church is waiting for (1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8, Titus 2:13), the future "brightness" of His future parousia which will destroy the future Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

1 Cor 13:8 should stop tongues and the cause of division as verse 8 says GLOSSIA / LANGUAGES have been stopped as the Greek verb THEY SHALL FAIL / KATARGEO is kin the Greek FUTURE TENSE !

Right, but not until His future, Second Coming.

(See post #2 above).

 

[DAN P]

Are you referring to the following verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

If so, note that the restrainer of the future Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan himself at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer cannot be God's Holy Spirit (as is sometimes claimed) because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b) while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because He is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer cannot be the Church (the body of Christ: Colossians 1:18) or the Holy Spirit in the Church because the Church will not be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30, Proverbs 2:21-22). Also, there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Christians in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with Christians during the future Tribulation.

Also, the Tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient Christians can have the comfort of God's Holy Spirit at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.



Note that Jesus Christ's future parousia (coming), His future apocalypse (revelation), and His future epiphany (appearing), all refer to the same thing: His future, Second Coming.

For His future "parousia" (G3952) is His second "coming" when He will resurrect and change the obedient part of the Church (of all times) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), when He will resurrect and then catch up together (rapture) the Church into the clouds to hold a meeting with Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), when He will gather together (rapture) the Church and destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). This will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7,20) and right before the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

And Jesus' future "apocalypse" (apokalupsis: G0602) is His future "revelation" which the Church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), His second "coming" which the Church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7), His future "appearing" which the Church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:7).

And Jesus' future "epiphany" (epiphaneia: G2015) is His future "appearing" which the Church is waiting for (1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8, Titus 2:13), the future "brightness" of His future parousia which will destroy the future Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).



Right, but not until His future, Second Coming.

(See post #2 above).

Hi and first is IN verse 3 , the FALLINY AWAY / DEPARTURE of the B O C !!

I believe that we are the RESTRAINER as the GODHEAD dwells within all believers !!

Then Rom 11:26 begins , which is Jacobs Trouble . 1 1/2 years !!

Then the LAWLESS one will be revealed , in verse 8 >

dan p

 

[bibleverse2]

Hi and first is IN verse 3 , the FALLINY AWAY / DEPARTURE of the B O C !!

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia: G0646) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the Church in the latter times will depart from faith in Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 4:1) when the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and will begin a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi (G0868), include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church will not physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30, Proverbs 2:21-22), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge everyone in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the Church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Then Rom 11:26 begins , which is Jacobs Trouble . 1 1/2 years !!

Regarding Romans 11:26, it refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when all of the still-living, non-Christian, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will become Christians when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in Him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Isaiah 4:3-4, Romans 11:26).

Regarding the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7), it will not be the entire future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the Tribulation, right before Jesus Christ returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The Church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the Tribulation. For Christians will be in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). And there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Then the LAWLESS one will be revealed , in verse 8 >

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

 

[Aimiel]

Covet to prophesy!!! I'd much rather prophesy an hour than speak in tongues for a million hours.

 

[Clete]

The modern "speaking in tongues" as well as the rest of the so called "Charismatic Movement" has been falsified so many times that it's not even funny. It's been proven to be false linguistically, biblically, historically and who know in how many other ways. If you are "speaking in tongues" today, you're either a victim of lies or are yourself a liar. In most cases its the former, of course. It's just another ingredient that adds flavor to the complex con job that is the charismatic movement. It simply adds a layer to the con that causes the mark to convince himself by way of emotion based experience, that the lie is true. It serves the same purpose as a baited fishing hook except that what's being fished for is the mark's money.

John MacArthur has a great deal of material on the subject in a variety of formats. Whether you agree with anything else MacArthur says, his work in this area is unassailable by any intellectually honest person. His argumentation comes from several different direction but, so far as I can recall, none of them are based on his own doctrine in the sense of "Speaking in tongues conflicts with my doctrine, therefore it isn't real." In other words, his arguments are rationally sound, biblically and historically based and are quite thorough and easy to understand.

Thirteen Sermons on Charismatic Chaos

Charismatic Chaos the book

The book is 30 years old and is probably more powerful now than it was in 1993 when he wrote it because it's so easy to see now that he was right about the whole movement.

 

[The Berean]

Are you a cessationist, Clete? Just wondering.

 

[Clete]

Are you a cessationist, Clete? Just wondering.

Probably.

Just what is a "cessationist", in your view?

 

[The Berean]

Probably.

Just what is a "cessationist", in your view?

The most common definition is that the miraculous "sign/power" gifts no longer operate today. The Holy Spirit today doesn't grant the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophetic utterances, gift of healing, etc.

I've read quite a bit, pro and con, on the subject as I find it fascinating.

 

[God's Truth]

The believers in the Bible times who spoke in tongues, they spoke in tongues supernaturally. The believers who supposedly speak in tongues nowadays, they speak gibberish and believe God turns their gibberish into supernatural language, and that is a false doctrine.

 

[Clete]

The most common definition is that the miraculous "sign/power" gifts no longer operate today. The Holy Spirit today doesn't grant the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophetic utterances, gift of healing, etc.

I've read quite a bit, pro and con, on the subject as I find it fascinating.

There is no evidence that any such "sign/power gifts" are in operation today. When God does miracles they're obvious and undeniable and do not exist only in the eyes of the "faithful".

Have you read Bob Enyart's book The Plot? If not, you'd probably appreciate his work on the topic. It is undoubtedly the most thorough biblical argument I've seen and the book isn't even about miracles and healing per se. I mean, it is talked about at length in one chapter but it definitely is not the point of the book at all.

The Plot by Bob Enyart

 

[Bright Raven]

There is no evidence that any such "sign/power gifts" are in operation today. When God does miracles they're obvious and undeniable and do not exist only in the eyes of the "faithful".

Have you read Bob Enyart's book The Plot? If not, you'd probably appreciate his work on the topic. It is undoubtedly the most thorough biblical argument I've seen and the book isn't even about miracles and healing per se. I mean, it is talked about at length in one chapter but it definitely is not the point of the book at all.

The Plot by Bob Enyart

Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today

 

[Right Divider]

Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today

Because you say it is does not mean that it is.

 

[Bright Raven]

Because you say it is does not mean that it is.

That's a fact but I never said that they were in operation. That is something you assumed.

 

[Right Divider]

That's a fact but I never said that they were in operation. That is something you assumed.

Why would I not assume that based on what you posted?