"Son of Man"

[marke]

But you're not listening. What OZOS just said is like a clanging cymbal to your ears.

Listen to what he said, because he just pointed out a MAJOR difference between the gospel Paul referred to, and the gospel that the twelve were taught to preach.



Yes, that's the point. The gospel that the disciples were given was DIFFERENT than the one Paul was given.

Things that are different are not the same.

You might as well say there are hundreds of gospels for all the different aspects and messages the term contains. However, all truth of the Word of God is included in what the Bible refers to as the Gospel. Study it out. There are not just two aspects of the Gospel, there are dozens of different references to God's truth comprehended in the word "Gospel."

1 Peter 1:25​

“But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

Galatians 3:8​

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

Galatians 2:7​

“But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;”

And so forth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You might as well say there are hundreds of gospels for all the different aspects and messages the term contains.

"Gospel" means "good news."

There is plenty of good news in the Bible.

However, all truth of the Word of God is included in what the Bible refers to as the Gospel.

Because you say so?

Cite please.

Study it out. There are not just two aspects of the Gospel, there are dozens of different references to God's truth comprehended in the word "Gospel."

You're missing the point of contention with this statement.

We're not saying there's multiple "aspects" of the same gospel.

We're saying there are multiple gospels in the Bible.

1 Peter 1:25​

“But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

Galatians 3:8​

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

Galatians 2:7​

“But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;”

And so forth.

That last one. Did you miss where it says "gospel of uncircumcision" as a separate gospel to the "gospel of the circumcision"?

 

[marke]

That last one. Did you miss where it says "gospel of uncircumcision" as a separate gospel to the "gospel of the circumcision"?

Galatians 2 does not say there are two Gospels of salvation. Jews and Gentiles are all saved the same way and that way is described in the same Gospel. What Galatians 2 refers to is the fact that Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to the Jews while Paul was sent to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Galatians 2 does not say there are two Gospels of salvation.

What it says is "gospel of the uncircumcision" and "gospel of the circumcision."

Circumcision is not uncircumcision.

Saying they are the same (saying that the gospel of the circumcision is the same one as the gospel of the uncircumcision) amounts to you claiming that A is not A.

Jews and Gentiles are all saved the same way and that way is described in the same Gospel.

Which one?

What Galatians 2 refers to is the fact that Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to the Jews while Paul was sent to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Paul went to the Jews as well, Mark, and he didn't preach the same things as the Twelve.

 

[marke]

What it says is "gospel of the uncircumcision" and "gospel of the circumcision."

Circumcision is not uncircumcision.

Saying they are the same (saying that the gospel of the circumcision is the same one as the gospel of the uncircumcision) amounts to you claiming that A is not A.



Which one?



Paul went to the Jews as well, Mark, and he didn't preach the same things as the Twelve.

I do not believe there is one message from God to the Jews and a different message to the Gentiles instructing sinners how to get saved, or, as is being suggested, two different Gospel messages about two different means of salvation. But I am interested to hear your views about the differences between the two Gospel messages.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I do not believe [. . .]

That's because you're not paying attention. This is what Clete was talking about.

[I do not believe] there is one message from God to the Jews

Not a "message."

A covenant.

It's called the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31

Made with Israel and Judah, the same people with whom the Old Covenant was made. It was not made with the Gentiles.

and a different message to the Gentiles

Not just to the Gentiles, but to the whole world. (Galatians 3:28)

"No longer..."

Things that differ....

instructing sinners how to get saved, or, as is being suggested, two different Gospel messages about two different means of salvation.

Salvation for the Jews is the Messiah's second coming, which requires the Jew to live according to the New Covenant. (In other words: Works + Faith.)

Salvation for the world (Jews AND Gentiles alike) requires only that a person place their trust in the One who paid the price for their sin. (In other words: Faith, No Works.)

Things that differ....

But I am interested to hear your views about the differences between the two Gospel messages.

Question: Do you think that the two gospels (or "covenants," if you will) were/are in effect simultaneously?

 

[marke]

That's because you're not paying attention. This is what Clete was talking about.



Not a "message."

A covenant.

It's called the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31

Made with Israel and Judah, the same people with whom the Old Covenant was made. It was not made with the Gentiles.



Not just to the Gentiles, but to the whole world. (Galatians 3:28)

"No longer..."

Things that differ....



Salvation for the Jews is the Messiah's second coming, which requires the Jew to live according to the New Covenant. (In other words: Works + Faith.)

Salvation for the world (Jews AND Gentiles alike) requires only that a person place their trust in the One who paid the price for their sin. (In other words: Faith, No Works.)

Things that differ....



Question: Do you think that the two gospels (or "covenants," if you will) were/are in effect simultaneously?

I am not sure if you think there are two different messages of salvation in the Bible - one for Jews and the other for Christians, but I don't. Christians and Jews are alike saved by faith and not by works. There are no other possibilities.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am not sure if you think there are two different messages of salvation in the Bible - one for Jews and the other for Christians, but I don't. Christians and Jews are alike saved by faith and not by works. There are no other possibilities.

Jesus taught "Keep My commandments." (referring to the law and works)

Paul taught "If you keep the law, you're cursed." (the law is a curse)

Things that differ....

 

[marke]

Jesus taught "Keep My commandments." (referring to the law and works)

Paul taught "If you keep the law, you're cursed." (the law is a curse)

Things that differ....

Woah! That is messed up. Paul was not contradicting the Lord about keeping commandments and Jesus was not saying keeping the commandments will earn a person passage into heaven. Paul was saying all efforts to try to gain merit for salvation by simply keeping the commandments will end in condemnation. And Jesus was telling us to obey God, not to get saved, but to do right.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Woah! That is messed up.

You're saying that scripture is messed up? Because that's what scripture says:

Jesus:

John 14:15:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Paul:

Galatians 3:10:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”"

Paul was not contradicting the Lord about keeping commandments and Jesus was not saying keeping the commandments will earn a person passage into heaven.

The point is that what Paul said after Christ's ascension is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what Jesus said during His earthly ministry.

Paul was saying all efforts to try to gain merit for salvation by simply keeping the commandments will end in condemnation.

That's because if you keep one or more laws, you MUST keep the WHOLE law. No one can do so, and so it results in condemnation.

And Jesus was telling us to obey God, not to get saved, but to do right.

Jesus said to keep His commandments if you love Him.

Paul said if you keep the law you are under a curse.

Things that differ.

 

[marke]

You're saying that scripture is messed up? Because that's what scripture says:

Jesus:

John 14:15:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Paul:

Galatians 3:10:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”"



The point is that what Paul said after Christ's ascension is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what Jesus said during His earthly ministry.



That's because if you keep one or more laws, you MUST keep the WHOLE law. No one can do so, and so it results in condemnation.



Jesus said to keep His commandments if you love Him.

Paul said if you keep the law you are under a curse.

Things that differ.

Paul and Jesus both said to keep the commandments, especially after having been saved, not to be saved, but to do right.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Paul and Jesus both said to keep the commandments,

Again, let me quote scripture verbatim:

PAUL:
Galatians 3:10:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”"

JESUS:
John 14:15, 21:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.
. . .
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10:
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Completely OPPOSITE teachings, Mark.

especially after having been saved, not to be saved, but to do right.

This is called moving the goalposts. It is a logical fallacy.

Much of Romans is literally about how we have been FREED from the law.

 

[marke]

Again, let me quote scripture verbatim:

PAUL:
Galatians 3:10:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”"

JESUS:
John 14:15, 21:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.
. . .
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10:
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Completely OPPOSITE teachings, Mark.



This is called moving the goalposts. It is a logical fallacy.

Much of Romans is literally about how we have been FREED from the law.

If you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. If you don't love Jesus you won't.
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Right Divider]

I find that hard to believe.

That's your problem.

 

[Right Divider]

If you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. If you don't love Jesus you won't.
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Your main problem is that you completely ignore the CONTEXT of scripture.

Christ's earthly ministry was to ISRAEL. The scripture repeats that over and over again.

So Jesus was NOT talking to you during His earthly ministry.

Rom 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The "fathers" refers to the fathers of ISRAEL!

Mat 10:5-7 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Note that the gospel of the kingdom was to be preached to Israel only (per that scripture).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Right Divider,

Your main problems is that you completely ignore the CONTEXT of scripture. Christ's earthly ministry was to ISRAEL. The scripture repeats that over and over again. So Jesus was NOT talking to you during His earthly ministry.

John 12:20-26 (KJV): 20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 12:44-50 (KJV): Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[marke]

Your main problem is that you completely ignore the CONTEXT of scripture.

Christ's earthly ministry was to ISRAEL. The scripture repeats that over and over again.

So Jesus was NOT talking to you during His earthly ministry.

The "fathers" refers to the fathers of ISRAEL!

Note that gospel of the kingdom was to be preached to Israel only (per that scripture).

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Right Divider]

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The apostle John was one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL!

Again, until you understand and seriously consider the CONTEXT, you will continue to be confused.

 

[marke]

The apostle John was one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL!

Again, until you understand and seriously consider the CONTEXT, you will continue to be confused.

What part of the NT do you believe is written to and for Christians?
1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[Right Divider]

What part of the NT do you believe is written to and for Christians?

That depends on what you mean by the term "Christian".

Act 11:26 KJV And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Israel and the body of Christ are two different things.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Did you even read the OP?

Jesus called Himself the Son of man more then any other term and YET Paul wrote THIRTEEN epistles and NEVER ONCE uses that term to describe Jesus Christ.