SOME PROOF OF CHRIST'S DIETY AND BEING THE CREATOR OF ALL THAT IS.

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Grosnick Marowbe

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Some believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. However,
the book of Hebrews was written, to and about the Hebrews.
Paul on the other hand was the Apostle to the gentiles.

Verse one of the book of Hebrews states: "God who at various
times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the
prophets,"
God didn't raise up gentile prophets to go to the
gentile nations, he sent Israelite prophets from Israel to bring
them to repentance. Example: Jonah.

The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. Hebrews 1:8-10
states: "8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


God the Father calls His Son, God. God the Father also said,
that His Son laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens
are the work of Your hands.


If God Himself calls His Son, God Who among us can deny
Christ's Deity?
 
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Elia

Well-known member
Some believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. However,
the book of Hebrews was written, to and about the Hebrews.
Paul on the other hand was the Apostle to the gentiles.

Verse one of the book of Hebrews states: "God who at various
times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the
prophets,"
You'll notice that it states He (God) spoke to the
fathers by the prophets. Well, this verse cannot be speaking to
gentiles, because God never sent prophets to the gentiles, but
to the fathers of the House of Israel.

Bs"d

That is already a mistake. God sent Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh, and the Gentiles had the gentile prophet Bilham.

The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. Hebrews 1:8-10
states: "8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]

The double usage of "God" does not mean that there are two gods, but the second "Your God" is just a a more defined description of the first God.
There is only one God in the Bible.

The whole Bible teaches that there is only one God who is one.

Polytheism is idolatry.

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.[/B]

See here about whom that speaks:

"This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise Y-H-W-H.
19
For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven Y-H-W-H viewed the earth,
20
To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
21
To declare the name of Y-H-W-H in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
22
When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve Y-H-W-H.
23
He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
24
I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
25
Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26
They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
27
But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end."
Psalm 45

That speaks about the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

And not about "the son".

God the Father calls His Son, God.

No he does not.

God the Father also said,
that His Son laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens
are the work of Your hands.

No. That is only according to Paul. But if you look it up in the Hebrew Bible, then you see there is no such thing.

Don't fall for the lies of that swindler.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction. The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things. Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know My hand and My might; and they shall know that My name is Y-H-W-H.”
Jer 16:19-21
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

See HERE who is God, and see there also that there is no god besides Him.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H
.

Joshua 24:14-15
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Some believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. However,
the book of Hebrews was written, to and about the Hebrews.

I agree. The entire NT was written by Hebrews for Hebrews in the context of Hebrew culture and from a Hebrew perspective.

Those who try to understand the scriptures from any other perspective fail. Even Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews.

...circumcised the eighth day of the stock of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee... (Philippians 3:5 NKJV)​

Paul was a Hebrew rabbi but like the other apostles did not understand scripture until the Holy Spirit opened his mind to understand.

I doubt that Paul ever even imagined there would exist a book called the New Testament. Paul taught from the Hebrew scriptures from a Hebrew perspective even though he was a natural born Roman citizen. Paul testified he never taught against Jewish law, never taught against God's Temple and never taught insurrection (Acts 25:8).

So who is a legitimate Hebrew?

Paul explained, "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)

For those who claim they are not a Hebrew, I understand and I agree.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
I read that Hebrews was accredited to Paul so it could be placed in the New Testament. It's anonymity was causing problems on it's acceptance.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Some believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. However,
the book of Hebrews was written, to and about the Hebrews.
Paul on the other hand was the Apostle to the gentiles.

Verse one of the book of Hebrews states: "God who at various
times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the
prophets,"
God didn't raise up gentile prophets to go to the
gentile nations, he sent Israelite prophets from Israel to bring
them to repentance. Example: Jonah.

The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. Hebrews 1:8-10
states: "8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


God the Father calls His Son, God. God the Father also said,
that His Son laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens
are the work of Your hands.


If God Himself calls His Son, God Who among us can deny
Christ's Deity?

Good verse to discuss GM. It speaks of the spiritual son Christ and his role in the creation. God created all through his Christ. Christ is a FORM of God as stated in Phil 2. Yet this son is a creature as we are told in Col 1:15. Christ had to be the firstborn of all creation.

How do we define "Deity"? This son received all its power from his father YHWH. Jesus Christ told us that only his Father is the TRUE God, I believe that. Yet, Christ was given the fullness of the Father. So the facts are Christ is a created deity.
 
Good verse to discuss GM. It speaks of the spiritual son Christ and his role in the creation. God created all through his Christ. Christ is a FORM of God as stated in Phil 2. Yet this son is a creature as we are told in Col 1:15. Christ had to be the firstborn of all creation.

How do we define "Deity"? This son received all its power from his father YHWH. Jesus Christ told us that only his Father is the TRUE God, I believe that. Yet, Christ was given the fullness of the Father. So the facts are Christ is a created deity.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to go back to school, learn the meaning of Prototokos and the scriptural application of this word, that firstborn has nothing to do with being a creature, or even being the firstborn in some creature familial birth order, and that the first creation of such said creature would be Protoktisis in the Greek. Paul is clearly speaking to Christ's preeminence in eternity. Clear as the nose on your face, Paul even goes on to describe the role and activities of the Almighty God of the Old Testament. Duh! You're misleading people, contrary to the scripture context of the entire Bible, on who the Lord Jesus is, and always was.

Anyway, we've established you subscribe to the Arian heresy, reducing Christ, who created ALL things, to a creature, who presumably created Himself? What, very God as scripture is most clear on, but some God not of eternity?

Which Arian heresy cult, cut off at the knees by scripture truth, are you? Jehovah's Witnesses?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Good verse to discuss GM. It speaks of the spiritual son Christ and his role in the creation. God created all through his Christ. Christ is a FORM of God as stated in Phil 2. Yet this son is a creature as we are told in Col 1:15. Christ had to be the firstborn of all creation.

How do we define "Deity"? This son received all its power from his father YHWH. Jesus Christ told us that only his Father is the TRUE God, I believe that. Yet, Christ was given the fullness of the Father. So the facts are Christ is a created deity.

I see that you're still ignorant of the truths of Scripture. You
poor soul. You're the Guru of your own little cult. Enjoy.
 
I see that you're still ignorant of the truths of Scripture. You
poor soul. You're the Guru of your own little cult. Enjoy.

Do you notice this in his closing?

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

Subtly slimy and pathetic. It speaks volumes. They don't love Christ. How do you love somebody you don't even acknowledge, respect, the Personage of? Very God you try and denigrate to creature status? Thomas didn't even have a New Testament, but he had this much sense:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Whatever motivates anybody to tear down the brightest manifestation of very God the earth has ever seen, denigrate the Person of their Creator? It seems to me that's the work of the other guy, not God. You have to also presume they're semi-literate. How do they get past this?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I hate to say it, really do, but the truth is all this Neanderthal, Christ-denying theology from hell, in this day and age when people have every tool imaginable to put truth in their laps, is beyond absurd, and reading these deceptive people, anymore, is a real bore. It's high time some people either grow up, or shut up.

Incidentally, you dig into some of these cults, and they've actually the likes of relegated Jesus Christ to being the angel Michael and purported to be Satan's brother. From Russell to White to Smith there's some genuine, heinous blasphemy, seriously twisted, demonic stuff, make no mistake.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Do you notice this in his closing?

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

Subtly slimy and pathetic. It speaks volumes. They don't love Christ. How do you love somebody you don't even acknowledge, respect, the Personage of? Very God you try and denigrate to creature status? Thomas didn't even have a New Testament, but he had this much sense:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Whatever motivates anybody to tear down the brightest manifestation of very God the earth has ever seen, denigrate the Person of their Creator? It seems to me that's the work of the other guy, not God. You have to also presume they're semi-literate. How do they get past this?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I hate to say it, really do, but the truth is all this Neanderthal, Christ-denying theology from hell, in this day and age when people have every tool imaginable to put truth in their laps, is beyond absurd, and reading these deceptive people, anymore, is a real bore. It's high time some people either grow up, or shut up.

Incidentally, you dig into some of these cults, and they've actually the likes of relegated Jesus Christ to being the angel Michael and purported to be Satan's brother. From Russell to White to Smith there's some genuine, heinous blasphemy, seriously twisted, demonic stuff, make no mistake.

Excellent post
 
Excellent post

Thank you much! Just doing the best I can to tell it like it is, having crossed some bridges that were real eye openers, maybe, Lord willing, do a little something to warn people what's really going on. It's far from pretty, when you peel back that onion. I also just hate to see the glory of the Lord Jesus mocked.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Do you notice this in his closing?

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

Subtly slimy and pathetic.

Bs"d

You call fulfilling the most important commandment "slimy and pathetic"??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

This is what God says:

" “Hear, O Israel: Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is one! 5 You shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."
Deut 6

And according to WLJ, if anybody has the audacity to actually do this, then he is slimy and pathetic.

It speaks volumes. He doesn't love Y-H-W-H God. He prefers his own idols.

Thomas didn't even have a New Testament, but he had this much sense:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I don't have a human being as God; my God is Y-H-W-H who is one.

Whatever motivates anybody to tear down the brightest manifestation of very God the earth has ever seen, denigrate the Person of their Creator?

I don't know about your creator, but this is my Creator:

"And Y-H-W-H God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
Gen 2:7

It seems to me that's the work of the other guy, not God. You have to also presume they're semi-literate. How do they get past this?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You get past that by being literate, knowing Scripture, and using your brain:

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

But people will find ways to justify their idolatry, and refrain from worshipping the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H
.

Joshua 24:14-15
 
You know, Elia, you're over exerting yourself. A simple, "I am not a Christian" from you would suffice. We could then presume your exegesis is wholly flawed, without you going to all the trouble to demonstrate this.
 

Elia

Well-known member
You know, Elia, you're over exerting yourself. A simple, "I am not a Christian" from you would suffice. We could then presume your exegesis is wholly flawed, without you going to all the trouble to demonstrate this.

Bs"d

You mean you are so brainwashed that you cannot accept anything from somebody who is not a Christian?

And what type of Christian does somebody have to be? I mean: There are HUNDREDS of different sects, which one is the right one?

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H
.

Joshua 24:14-15
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yet this son is a creature as we are told in Col 1:15. Christ had to be the firstborn of all creation.

All humans are creatures, you should have read a little further in Colossians.

...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of God's kingdom.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23 NKJV)​

With that in mind let's look at Colossians 1:15.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15 NKJV)​

The firstborn of the dead in that Jesus died.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:18 NKJV)​

If you would put Colossians 1:15 back in the context of Colossians 1 you would understand it instead of promoting a heresy.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Paul wrote Hebrews.

See Hebrews 13:23 and his reference to, "Our brother Timothy".

But he didn't write it the same way as did when he writing to Gentiles.
 

CherubRam

New member
Psalm 45
6 Your throne, O (God / god,) is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;...

Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O (God / god,) will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

A matter of translation and interpretation.
 
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