...so death passed upon all men...Rom 5:12

[Danoh]

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Every where the word "creature" is used it is the same word where "creation" is used and is Strongs G2937.

Everything mortal/created decays, and that is why it groans.

Here Paul is contrasting it with a spirit body which does not decay.

Which proves my point - that mankind, like creation was made mortal, decays and dies.

The animals did not have access to the Tree of Life so they could live forever. They were never offered that opportunity. They were made to eventually die. We should not blame their deaths on Adam's sin.

As is the luck of the draw of your obvious "study" approach (of much guessing at) you were bound to get one thing or another right, even as you continue to get much wrong.

I agree with much of your above post.

Can't say the same for any of your other posts on this thread prior to that one.

The issue the Apostle Paul is dealing with is the issue of "Paradise Lost."

From this...

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

You see that phrase there "to see what he would call them"?

That is speaking of His delight in that Adam.

Of His having delighted in that Adam going about feeling his way out, and growing in his sense of purpose before his Creator, as he went about carrying His will in His stead.

Sort of like with this delight here...

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

And later, this...

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God had had a similar delight in that first Adam...

2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And so on...

In contrast to all that AFTER that Adam's transgression...

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

From that order and sense of order over all things to vanity, or the chaos and sense of hopelessness of a vanity; of a thing bereft of any rhyme or reason: with its resulting; unavoidable...fear.

Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

But now, there was a hope...once more.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

In this, note how all animal's natural inclination is to sense out and be drawn to, where there is water.

They too ended up subject to that bondage of corruption.

They too greatly fear...death.

They too will have access once more...to that river of life.

And why not?

They too are our delight in...the Lord.

 

[iouae]

Not fallen.....corrupted. The more sin, the more corruption and death.

Romans 8:Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

I'm not sure where you came up with the theory that there were already thistles outside of Eden. God created and called it good.

Who made the creation mortal and therefore subject to corruption? God. See Rom 8:20

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21

It was God's plan all along to make earth unlike heaven - mortal, material, subject to gravity and decay.
So when the creation figuratively "groans" it does so "not willingly" meaning nothing to do with the creatures will, "but by reason of Him..." but because of God's good reasons.

And one good reason is so that we will want something better and more enduring, viz. spirit bodies, not subject to corruption. We need this life to taste life, enjoy it, taste God, enjoy Him, and want more.

The future life has to be better for us to want more. If it were perfect now, we would be totally content. God made us needy.

And the thorns are just part of the imperfection, so that we can look forward to a more perfect world.

The curse on the land was removed after the flood. Not the thorns.

Gen 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;

 

[ttruscott]

Shalom. ...death spread to all man because all have sinned.

Is not "because they sinned" the same as "when they sinned' implying that death only passes to sinners? Does this not suggest that the orthodox inference that we are born sinners and die due to Adam's sin must be false???

Adam's death is applied to sinners; his sin does not create sinners. We do not die (only sinners die) for the sins of our fathers and Adam is everyone's father. What possible reason would YHWH have to have HIS bride born as despicably evil by making her human? The mind boggles that the Church could ever have entertained such a blasphemy for even a second!

Only believing as fact that we are created at birth as sinners and did not sin before we are sown as human keeps us locked into this blasphemy. Did we not inherit the idea that Adam was created perfect on earth and was not a sinner from his pre-human life (an interpretation that has much Bible support) from the Jews?

 

[Jacob]

Is not "because they sinned" the same as "when they sinned' implying that death only passes to sinners? Does this not suggest that the orthodox inference that we are born sinners and die due to Adam's sin must be false???

Adam's death is applied to sinners; his sin does not create sinners. We do not die (only sinners die) for the sins of our fathers and Adam is everyone's father. What possible reason would YHWH have to have HIS bride born as despicably evil by making her human? The mind boggles that the Church could ever have entertained such a blasphemy for even a second!

Only believing as fact that we are created at birth as sinners and did not sin before we are sown as human keeps us locked into this blasphemy. Did we not inherit the idea that Adam was created perfect on earth and was not a sinner from his pre-human life (an interpretation that has much Bible support) from the Jews?

Shalom.

Today is Shishi, 11-3.

Adam did not have a pre-human existence. What do you mean by orthodox? I am an Orthodox Jew. I do not mix meat and dairy in the same meal. I wear a kippah as a gift but I need to convert. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism.

When and because are different, but they sinned.

Each man is responsible for his own sin. The question is if sin would exist in the world if Adam and Eve had not sinned. Certainly their decision has affected us their offspring.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

I'm not sure where you came up with the theory that there were already thistles outside of Eden. God created and called it good.

Gen 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed

Inside Eden was like my back yard.

Outside Eden is like outside my back yard. In my garden there are no weeds because I weed it.
Outside, in the bush, there are weeds.

Where you go wrong Glorydaz is that where God mentions something for the first time you ASSUME God is creating it then.

Like you ASSUME that when God makes a rainbow to be a covenant of no more flood, that this is the first rainbow ever. That is nuts to assume.

Likewise when thorns are mentioned, they were created in creation week, but outside Eden's garden. Otherwise you are saying God created thorns and thistles after creation week, when Adam sinned. That makes God the spoiler of His own creation. That is to accuse God of bringing death and suffering into the world, instead of it being just a natural consequence of man's disobedience. And not Adam's disobedience, man's.

And if you believe God created thorns and thistles after creation week, please give me a list of all other things God created after Adam sinned.

Mosquitos?
Ticks?
Polio?
Flu?
Charles Manson?

 

[iouae]

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

In this, note how all animal's natural inclination is to sense out and be drawn to, where there is water.

They too ended up subject to that bondage of corruption.

They too greatly fear...death.

They too will have access once more...to that river of life.

And why not?

They too are our delight in...the Lord.

You may just possibly have a point that animals might get to drink of rivers giving them potentially eternal life.

Nice pic of lion and zebra at waterhole - obviously photoshopped.

 

[jsanford108]

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse is often used to prove there was no death OF ANY SORT before the forbidden fruit was eaten.

From the highlighted bit, it should be clear that this verse is talking about the death of man, not animals such as dinosaurs which were dying in droves before Adam.

Further proof is that animals cannot sin. Again this verse is speaking of humans sinning and humans dying, not animals.

There was death as in food chains, before Adam.

And if a seed falls off a grass plant, some seed dies. There was plant death for sure before Adam.

Interesting point.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[iouae]

Interesting point.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Thank you. That was entirely the point of my starting this thread to point out that the only death being referred to in Rom 5:12 is human death.

Animal and plant death is not the result of Adam's sin, but the result of their being created material and mortal, and with limited lifespans, and because it was God who created food chains, not Satan.

 

[glorydaz]

Gen 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed

Inside Eden was like my back yard.

Outside Eden is like outside my back yard. In my garden there are no weeds because I weed it.
Outside, in the bush, there are weeds.

Where you go wrong Glorydaz is that where God mentions something for the first time you ASSUME God is creating it then.

Like you ASSUME that when God makes a rainbow to be a covenant of no more flood, that this is the first rainbow ever. That is nuts to assume.

Likewise when thorns are mentioned, they were created in creation week, but outside Eden's garden. Otherwise you are saying God created thorns and thistles after creation week, when Adam sinned. That makes God the spoiler of His own creation. That is to accuse God of bringing death and suffering into the world, instead of it being just a natural consequence of man's disobedience. And not Adam's disobedience, man's.

And if you believe God created thorns and thistles after creation week, please give me a list of all other things God created after Adam sinned.

Mosquitos?
Ticks?
Polio?
Flu?
Charles Manson?

I'm glad you know what I assume.

At least I'm not assuming God created thorns and thistles that only grew outside the garden.

However, I see what you think, and it's bunk......came right out of your mouth (so to speak).


Sin entered the world. All of creation was affected, and began to die, just as Adam did. What do you think the effects of sin are? Corruption...death...disease....sickness...decay The curse was a cancer of sin that corrupted all of creation.

Gen. 3:17-18Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;​

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.​

Gen. 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.​

 

[iouae]

I'm glad you know what I assume.

At least I'm not assuming God created thorns and thistles that only grew outside the garden.

However, I see what you think, and it's bunk......came right out of your mouth (so to speak).


Sin entered the world. All of creation was affected, and began to die, just as Adam did. What do you think the effects of sin are? Corruption...death...disease....sickness...decay The curse was a cancer of sin that corrupted all of creation.

Gen. 3:17-18Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;​

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.​

Gen. 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.​

If you do not believe rainbows were only created after the flood then you are INCONSISTENT.

Just because rainbows and thorns are mentioned, does not mean that this is when they are created.

Likewise when God says that He set the sun, moon and stars as signs and seasons does not mean that was when they were created. That was when they were set for signs and seasons, just as that was when the rainbow was made to be a sign of no more worldwide flood.

And did you know that God removed the curse on the land after the flood?

If thorns were part of that curse, there should be no more thorns.

But thorns exist.

Thus thorns were not created as part of that curse. Thorns existed from the creation week OUTSIDE EDEN. The curse God placed on mankind was to cast them out of Eden's garden where no thorns existed.

Gen 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

 

[glorydaz]

If you do not believe rainbows were only created after the flood then you are INCONSISTENT.

Just because rainbows and thorns are mentioned, does not mean that this is when they are created.

Likewise when God says that He set the sun, moon and stars as signs and seasons does not mean that was when they were created. That was when they were set for signs and seasons, just as that was when the rainbow was made to be a sign of no more worldwide flood.

And did you know that God removed the curse on the land after the flood?

If thorns were part of that curse, there should be no more thorns.

But thorns exist.

Thus thorns were not created as part of that curse. Thorns existed from the creation week OUTSIDE EDEN. The curse God placed on mankind was to cast them out of Eden's garden where no thorns existed.

Gen 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

He didn't say he would remove the curse. It's cool the way you make things up, but so juvenile.

 

[iouae]

He didn't say he would remove the curse. It's cool the way you make things up, but so juvenile.

I think it's more juvenile to lack the ability to read ...

I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

Which part of Gen 8:21 would you like me to spell out for you?

 

[glorydaz]

I think it's more juvenile to lack the ability to read ...

I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

Keep reading your own ideas into what the verse says.....

"I will never again curse the ground...." actually means exactly what it says. Wow, imagine that.

 

[iouae]

I keep saying that God learns as He goes along.

Genesis 8:21 is God having a moment of self reflection and repentance.

YES, GOD REPENTS WHEN HE MAKES MISTAKES.

And God is reflecting on His relationship with mankind before the flood.
God sees what a total waste of 1600 years this was since only a few souls were saved.

God realises that mankind is a lot weaker than He anticipated.

Thus God removes the pre-flood curse on the ground.

God wants to stop striving with mankind, and be able to bless mankind.

Even the OC relationship with Israel is God striving with Israel.
To this day God has a fight/strife with Israel.

It was only when Jesus and the NC came, that God entered into a more loving, close, familial relationship of being a Father to mankind.

God is definitely learning as time passes. Only a fool does not learn, and keeps repeating mistakes, and God is no fool.

 

[iouae]

Keep reading your own ideas into what the verse says.....

"I will never again curse the ground...." actually means exactly what it says. Wow, imagine that.

Please explain what "I will never again curse the ground..." means to you. What changed?