...so death passed upon all men...Rom 5:12

[iouae]

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse is often used to prove there was no death OF ANY SORT before the forbidden fruit was eaten.

From the highlighted bit, it should be clear that this verse is talking about the death of man, not animals such as dinosaurs which were dying in droves before Adam.

Further proof is that animals cannot sin. Again this verse is speaking of humans sinning and humans dying, not animals.

There was death as in food chains, before Adam.

And if a seed falls off a grass plant, some seed dies. There was plant death for sure before Adam.

 

[Jacob]

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse is often used to prove there was no death OF ANY SORT before the forbidden fruit was eaten.

From the highlighted bit, it should be clear that this verse is talking about the death of man, not animals such as dinosaurs which were dying in droves before Adam.

Further proof is that animals cannot sin. Again this verse is speaking of humans sinning and humans dying, not animals.

There was death as in food chains, before Adam.

And if a seed falls off a grass plant, some seed dies. There was plant death for sure before Adam.

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli (Shlishli means third, it is the third day of the week), 10-29 (the tenth month, the twenty-ninth day of the month), until sundown. It is the last day of the month. It is Yom, Day.

It may be that you do not understand things rightly or correctly.

I encourage you though, for Romans 5:12 is a key verse. In it we learn that since the time that Adam and Eve sinned, since (because) they sinned, death spread to all man because all have sinned. In other words, once sin entered the world with (through Adam and Eve) Adam and Eve, man and woman, man (mankind) God's creation of man male and female, the result or consequence of sin being death spread to all because (then) all (found themselves to have sinned, or (did) sin) sinned. So, the consequence of sin is death for all mankind because then all mankind sinned or all since have found themselves to have sinned. Even did the sin spread or did death the consequence of sin result in further sin (meaning that with the fall from obedience mankind found himself each one to be a sinner). Remember, Cain then murdered his brother Abel. Now Jesus is the exception to this.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

In other words, once sin entered the world with (through Adam and Eve) Adam and Eve, man and woman, man (mankind) God's creation of man male and female, the result or consequence of sin being death spread to all because (then) all (found themselves to have sinned, or (did) sin) sinned. So, the consequence of sin is death for all mankind because then all mankind sinned or all since have found themselves to have sinned.
Jacob

I agree with you that man's sin led to man's death.

What I object to is this verse being used to "prove" there was NO death in the world before eating the forbidden fruit.

Death occurred outside Eden because food chains existed.
Some insects like flies live only days. Flies died before Adam's sin.
Adam and Eve probably stood on an ant, or some other animal (elephant) did, killing the ant.

Can we all just admit that there was death in the world before Adam's sin.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with you that man's sin led to man's death.

What I object to is this verse being used to "prove" there was NO death in the world before eating the forbidden fruit.

Death occurred outside Eden because food chains existed.
Some insects like flies live only days. Flies died before Adam's sin.
Adam and Eve probably stood on an ant, or some other animal (elephant) did, killing the ant.

Can we all just admit that there was death in the world before Adam's sin.

Shalom.

If death is the consequence of man's sin, I disagree with you. Do you know what God created on each of the six days of creation?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

Shalom.

If death is the consequence of man's sin, I disagree with you. Do you know what God created on each of the six days of creation?

Shalom.

Jacob

Read the verse again...
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse speaks only of the death of MAN.

 

[Jacob]

Read the verse again...
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse speaks only of the death of MAN.

Certainly. But then may I observe that this was on the sixth day or after God's Sabbath (I believe it was not on the sixth day of creation).

So, we must answer the question of if man, Adam and Eve, died when they chose to sin against God in the Garden of Eden.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[daqq]

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse is often used to prove there was no death OF ANY SORT before the forbidden fruit was eaten.

From the highlighted bit, it should be clear that this verse is talking about the death of man, not animals such as dinosaurs which were dying in droves before Adam.

Further proof is that animals cannot sin. Again this verse is speaking of humans sinning and humans dying, not animals.

There was death as in food chains, before Adam.

And if a seed falls off a grass plant, some seed dies. There was plant death for sure before Adam.

I agree with you that man's sin led to man's death.

What I object to is this verse being used to "prove" there was NO death in the world before eating the forbidden fruit.

Death occurred outside Eden because food chains existed.
Some insects like flies live only days. Flies died before Adam's sin.
Adam and Eve probably stood on an ant, or some other animal (elephant) did, killing the ant.

Can we all just admit that there was death in the world before Adam's sin.

Read the verse again...
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

This verse speaks only of the death of MAN.

What kind of death? It seems you are thinking only in terms of physical death: is that correct? And if so then I would suggest that the passages in question are speaking first and foremost about separation from the Creator, (which is death).

 

[john w]

The subject of Romans 5:12 KJV, Paul's point-spiritual death....The bible is a book of details...

Romans 6:23 KJV

For the wages of sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)is death; but the gift of God is eternal life

Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural), condemned sin (my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)in the flesh:

1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV

"...Christ died for our sins...."(my emphasis-"sins" -plural)


John 3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 5:13 KJV

(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Thus, sin is the transgression of the law. However, if there is no law, a transgression against it cannot occur("where no law is, there is no transgression"), and sin cannot be imputed to one, if there is no law by which that sin is defined/held against you("sin is not imputed when there is no law-Romans 5:13 KJV).


And, hence, Paul's point below-And yet("Nevertheless"), people croaked, from the time of Adam, until Moses, when there was no law!

Why did they croak? Spiritual death...

Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15


Nevertheless =his argument.

Why? Paul's point-sin nature....spiritual death....the life of God left Adam.....the wages of sin is death.......spiritual death, which of course, leads to physical death, which is what happened to Adam,..........................us.

Scientist still cannot explain why physical death occurs. The bible does.

 

[iouae]

What kind of death? It seems you are thinking only in terms of physical death: is that correct? And if so then I would suggest that the passages in question are speaking first and foremost about separation from the Creator, (which is death).

Either way, my point is the verse speaks only to human death, not the rest of creation's death.

Animals are not affected by spiritual death.

Do you agree with this Daqq. If not, point to the portion of Rom 5:12 which speaks of animal death.

 

[iouae]

The subject of Romans 5:12 KJV, Paul's point-spiritual death....The bible is a book of details...

Romans 6:23 KJV

For the wages of sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)is death; but the gift of God is eternal life

Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural), condemned sin (my emphasis-"sin"-singular, not "sins"-plural)in the flesh:

1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV

"...Christ died for our sins...."(my emphasis-"sins" -plural)


John 3:4 KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 5:13 KJV

(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Thus, sin is the transgression of the law. However, if there is no law, a transgression against it cannot occur("where no law is, there is no transgression"), and sin cannot be imputed to one, if there is no law by which that sin is defined/held against you("sin is not imputed when there is no law-Romans 5:13 KJV).


And, hence, Paul's point below-And yet("Nevertheless"), people croaked, from the time of Adam, until Moses, when there was no law!

Why did they croak? Spiritual death...

Romans 5 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15


Nevertheless =his argument.

Why? Paul's point-sin nature....spiritual death....the life of God left Adam.....the wages of sin is death.......spiritual death, which of course, leads to physical death, which is what happened to Adam,..........................us.

Scientist still cannot explain why physical death occurs. The bible does.

You speak of law and sin, all of which apply only to humans, not animals.

Therefore I maintain, this verse says nothing one way or the other about animal death.

 

[john w]

You speak of law and sin, all of which apply only to humans, not animals.

Therefore I maintain, this verse says nothing one way or the other about animal death.

You missed my point-as usual. Take your seat, until I call on you.

 

[iouae]

I remember Ellen White writing how when Adam ate, the first leaf withered on a tree and fell off.

The inference was that human sin affected the rest of creation, which I maintain this verse says nothing about.

 

[daqq]

Either way, my point is the verse speaks only to human death, not the rest of creation's death.

Animals are not affected by spiritual death.

Do you agree with this Daqq. If not, point to the portion of Rom 5:12 which speaks of animal death.

Let it be noted that, as far as I can remember, this is the first time I have ever thanked John W for anything: and I did so because he spoke the truth.

 

[iouae]

You missed my point-as usual. Take your seat, until I call on you.

Thanks for taking the time to type out a long reply, but your reply was irrelevant to the OP and my point which is that man's sin did not result in the death of anything else in creation.

If you would like to address THE POINT, feel free.

Daqq likewise.

 

[iouae]

So, we must answer the question of if man, Adam and Eve, died when they chose to sin against God in the Garden of Eden.

Shalom.

Jacob

I am hoping someone will address the question of if ANIMALS AND PLANTS died when they chose to sin against God in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Jacob]

I am hoping someone will address the question of if ANIMALS AND PLANTS died when they chose to sin against God in the Garden of Eden.

Shalom.

Well, is it possible for God's creation to sin against Him? If man chose to sin you must break it down if animals and plants can sin as well.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

Shalom.

Well, is it possible for God's creation to sin against Him? If man chose to sin you must break it down if animals and plants can sin as well.

Shalom.

Jacob

Nobody says animals sin, because sin is the transgression of the law, and animals cannot read.

So animals die for another reason.

Many Christians INSIST that animals die because of Adam's sin. I say that no scripture says that, least of all Rom 5:12.

 

[Jacob]

Nobody says animals sin, because sin is the transgression of the law, and animals cannot read.

So animals die for another reason.

Many Christians INSIST that animals die because of Adam's sin. I say that no scripture says that, least of all Rom 5:12.

If animals do not sin, much less plants. However, I am not convinced. God's creation ought to, should, and can, praise Him.

Do you somehow believe that there are things that you can do that are neither right nor wrong, good nor evil, obedience to God nor disobedience? Neutral action is impossible. I say this idea implies that a person's actions may not be either moral or immoral.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[john w]

Let it be noted that, as far as I can remember, this is the first time I have ever thanked John W for anything: and I did so because he spoke the truth.

I'm on the right, Lex Luthor daqq.

 

[john w]

Thanks for taking the time to type out a long reply, but your reply was irrelevant to the OP and my point which is that man's sin did not result in the death of anything else in creation.

If you would like to address THE POINT, feel free.

Daqq likewise.

You assume that I was posting for your benefit-wrong assumption.

And your thread is quite irrelevant, like you.

So there.