...so death passed upon all men...Rom 5:12

[iouae]

Sure, but not sure which point, or how much detail do you want, ..... Scripture refers to physical death as the final enemy in 1 Cor. 15:26. If death is the enemy, then it's logical to conclude a loving God did not use millions of years of death as part of a creative process. And, of course He would not call a process like that "very good". Gen. 1:31

Also, we can see that death, pain and suffering were introduced into our world after man sinned. If physical death was used as part of the creation process, then what was the purpose of the cross... it becomes meaningless.


Not sure if I'm answering your question??

I think the above is a good example of folks saying that death only entered the world after Adam's sin, when Rom 5:12 says nothing of the kind.

I say that God had no problem with animals eating animals eating plants and the whole food chain would be very good. Good is always from God's perspective, and an animal living a physical existence and then dying IS very good.

 

[john w]

This "thread"(loosely employed here)...

...and thus I bid you adieu, saint John W fans....Have fun...And remember....God loves you, and so does the Easter Bunny...

 

[Lon]

Romans 8:20 Isaiah 11:6 Revelation 21:4,5

 

[iouae]

If animals do not sin, much less plants. However, I am not convinced. God's creation ought to, should, and can, praise Him.

Do you somehow believe that there are things that you can do that are neither right nor wrong, good nor evil, obedience to God nor disobedience? Neutral action is impossible. I say this idea implies that a person's actions may not be either moral or immoral.

Shalom.

Jacob

When David penned this Psalm, all the creatures and even inanimate objects listed die and decay, but they still praise the Lord for having existed.

Psa 148:7
Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
Psa 148:8
Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
Psa 148:9
Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:
Psa 148:10
Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl

 

[daqq]

I'm on the right, Lex Luthor daqq.

:rotfl:

 

[iouae]

Romans 8:20 Isaiah 11:6 Revelation 21:4,5

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Every where the word "creature" is used it is the same word where "creation" is used and is Strongs G2937.

Everything mortal/created decays, and that is why it groans.

Here Paul is contrasting it with a spirit body which does not decay.

Which proves my point - that mankind, like creation was made mortal, decays and dies.

The animals did not have access to the Tree of Life so they could live forever. They were never offered that opportunity. They were made to eventually die. We should not blame their deaths on Adam's sin.

 

[Jacob]

When David penned this Psalm, all the creatures and even inanimate objects listed die and decay, but they still praise the Lord for having existed.

Psa 148:7
Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
Psa 148:8
Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
Psa 148:9
Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:
Psa 148:10
Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl

It is my belief that animals can be taught the difference between right and wrong, that they know the difference between right and wrong, and that they are moral creatures, maybe even having a conscience.

I cannot remember what I read in the Bible.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

It is my belief that animals can be taught the difference between right and wrong, that they know the difference between right and wrong, and that they are moral creatures, maybe even having a conscience.

I cannot remember what I read in the Bible.

Shalom.

Jacob

So do you believe animals earn their own death, as in the wages of (their) sin is death.

If the gift of God is eternal life, and animals are not offered that gift, then they would die anyway without needing to sin.

 

[iouae]

If the gift of God is eternal life, and animals are not offered that gift, then they would die anyway without needing to sin.

I think I have just found a hole (loophole) in Paul's logic.

What if one did not sin? That still would not give eternal life since that is a gift - not promised for being good.
Thus sin or no sin, one would die.

 

[Jacob]

So do you believe animals earn their own death, as in the wages of (their) sin is death.

If the gift of God is eternal life, and animals are not offered that gift, then they would die anyway without needing to sin.

We should not speak to anyone implying a need to sin. If you discipline your son do you discipline or punish animals when they do something that is wrong? Training an animal is important, and what you train them in and for depends on your desired outcome.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

We should not speak to anyone implying a need to sin. If you discipline your son do you discipline or punish animals when they do something that is wrong? Training an animal is important, and what you train them in and for depends on your desired outcome.

Shalom.

Jacob

God had one desired outcome for creating animals and plants, and in fact the universe.

Everything that lives does so because God is sharing a bit of His life with them.

And NOTHING obliges God to give any creature eternal life. God gives temporary life. Thats why He made them mortal, and gave them big sharp pointy teeth - to live frantically, and die suddenly. Thats all I could ask for.

 

[Jacob]

God had one desired outcome for creating animals and plants, and in fact the universe.

Everything that lives does so because God is sharing a bit of His life with them.

And NOTHING obliges God to give any creature eternal life. God gives temporary life. Thats why He made them mortal, and gave them big sharp pointy teeth - to live frantically, and die suddenly. Thats all I could ask for.

It sounds like you believe in God. Do you believe in righteousness and eternal life? Do you believe in the free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

It sounds like you believe in God. Do you believe in righteousness and eternal life? Do you believe in the free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord?

Shalom.

Jacob

Yes. But Jesus did not die for animals, so they miss out. There is no gift for them. They only get to enjoy the here and now. And what a wonderful thing the here and now is.

Many Christians insist that this creation and all nature is terrible, and it's terrible because of the fall of man. NO! It's wonderful, and it's exactly the way God created it to operate.

Are you a glass half full or glass half empty person Jacob?

 

[Jacob]

Yes. But Jesus did not die for animals, so they miss out. There is no gift for them. They only get to enjoy the here and now. And what a wonderful thing the here and now is.

Many Christians insist that this creation and all nature is terrible, and it's terrible because of the fall of man. NO! It's wonderful, and it's exactly the way God created it to operate.

Are you a glass half full or glass half empty person Jacob?

Neither. I simply believe the Bible.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[iouae]

Gen 1:20
¶
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth

God creates the oceans teeming with life.

Anyone who was awake in biology class knows that...

plankton => crustaceans/krill => small fish => bigger fish => sharks

That's marine life. Small fish get eaten by bigger fish, get eaten by bigger fish, get eaten by apex predators.

Did God create all animals to eat plankton originally? Of course not. God gave fish teeth, not sieves to sieve out plankton.

Even plankton contains small animals.

So animals always were intended to eat animals.

And what does God say about fish eating fish?

It's good.

 

[Jacob]

Gen 1:20
¶
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth

God creates the oceans teeming with life.

Anyone who was awake in biology class knows that...

plankton => crustaceans/krill => small fish => bigger fish => sharks

That's marine life. Small fish get eaten by bigger fish, get eaten by bigger fish, get eaten by apex predators.

Did God create all animals to eat plankton originally? Of course not. God gave fish teeth, not sieves to sieve out plankton.

Even plankton contains small animals.

So animals always were intended to eat animals.

And what does God say about fish eating fish?

It's good.

Your words are not what the Scriptures say. I will leave it to you since your post here is not a reply to mine.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[daqq]

I'm on the right, Lex Luthor daqq.

That's two thank you's in one thread, mayor C. J. Kent, a.k.a. Boy Wonder.

Sincerely, Lex Leukos, in Messiah.

 

[iouae]

There is a belief that God created a whole lot of things after the fall of man, specifically designed to annoy mankind. Things like thorns. This is just not true.

Gen 3:17
¶
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There were no thorns and thistles in Eden. But outside, where God was sending them, there was.

And whereas they ate fruit in the garden, they were going to have to till the ground for seed crops outside and make bread - a whole more difficult process. That is the reference to "thou shalt eat the herb of the field;" and "make bread".

Life outside Eden from the first week of creation was exactly like life everywhere on earth today.
Today's earth is NOT a fallen earth. It is exactly the same earth as God originally created.

 

[iouae]

When one looks at the geologic column, we see that right from the Cambrian, animals were eating other animals.

This is what a Cambrian predator looked like...

One may not like predation, but in every ecosystem which has ever existed there has had to be predation. If not, herbivores breed without any limit, and destroy the natural resources (plants), and then they die anyway.

 

[glorydaz]

There is a belief that God created a whole lot of things after the fall of man, specifically designed to annoy mankind. Things like thorns. This is just not true.

Gen 3:17
¶
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There were no thorns and thistles in Eden. But outside, where God was sending them, there was.

And whereas they ate fruit in the garden, they were going to have to till the ground for seed crops outside and make bread - a whole more difficult process. That is the reference to "thou shalt eat the herb of the field;" and "make bread".

Life outside Eden from the first week of creation was exactly like life everywhere on earth today.
Today's earth is NOT a fallen earth. It is exactly the same earth as God originally created.

Not fallen.....corrupted. The more sin, the more corruption and death.

Romans 8:Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

I'm not sure where you came up with the theory that there were already thistles outside of Eden. God created and called it good.