There's NO confusion about what I think of you and your ilk.
sin/sins is not the issue today!
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You might just say it is "interesting" that I study history and tradition as well as interpretations, theology and belief.
Jesus, to me, is the norm of the Bible. And the thinking and additions of men came afterwards--and are still coming.
Jesus was a man and that is absolute fact. Jesus is the Messiah, Lord, God, Son of God, etc. Those are faith statements, not actual events.
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***There were those who saw Jesus and said "That's God! Let's follow him."
***There were others who said "This guy is boring. I'm outta here."
***And there were still others who said "This man is dangerous. Let's kill him."
ALL of these people have a right to their own thoughts and beliefs.
And so do you and I.
Then lets emerge from your own exile in the wilderness and be accountable for your own feelings here:
What, specifically, do you mean by "you and your ilk"?
And what exactly do you think here?
It is only mature to recognize, connect with, name them and bring those emotions out in public. And try to express them like a respectful adult.
I am not aware of being "inept" but quite possibly I have been.
Why don't you specifically list those times I have seemed inept to you and we can certainly go over them together.
Thanks in advance!
I don't consider you a "True Believer" because you reject,
by your own words, anything beyond the four Gospels. So,
you've chosen to be under the Law even though you're a
Gentile.
Grosnick, what is it that is preventing you from coming out and being more clear-cut with your denunciations and condemnations?
Sometimes as children we are loathe to speak the unvarnished truth to our own parents, simply because we are afraid of their anger and do not want to be left "out in the open" to be judged by them.
Is that what is going on with you here? Don't feel bad. The only way I can recognize that in you is because I myself am intimately acquainted with such feelings as well.
Sometimes as children we are loathe to speak the unvarnished truth to our own parents, simply because we are afraid of their anger and do not want to be left "out in the open" to be judged by them.
Is that what is going on with you here? Don't feel bad. The only way I can recognize that in you is because I myself am intimately acquainted with such feelings as well.
It would be of no value. You wouldn't be interested. Rest with that!
What is interesting to me--and what I think you do not know--is that I try to continually read beyond the Gospels.
I have a curious mind and am an inveterate reader. These days I can relate almost everything I read to the figure of Jesus of Nazareth. Believers would be astonished and dumfounded to learn of the DNA studies, the archeology, the reading of ancient texts and other literary forms of the past, sociological truths that relate to those living in Jesus' day, mythological studies, history of religions, and the economies of the first century that drove Jesus' intimate concerns with those who followed him.
Experts have recently uncovered what is most certainly Peter's home where his mother-in-law lived in Capernaum. And archeologists have discovered some fish processing plants around the Sea of Galilee. They almost certainly were squeezing out the profits the fishermen in the area were scraping together to make a decent living. And why they may have chosen to follow this astounding rabbi instead of staying around home.
New information--from wherever--makes my faith richer and deeper. I don't have to waste time being alarmed and defensive about different ideas and additions to the story of the Redeemer.
Albert Schweitzer, The Quest for the Historical Jesus:
He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside. He came to those men who knew Him not.
He speaks to us the same words: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time.
He commands.
And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.
I am not the one who is alarmed, defensive and angry with me. You need to be accountable and own your own reactions here.
I am safe and comfortable in my faith in Jesus.
Are you a member of the Body of Christ?
Noted.
I'm happy you agree.
Jesus' body is now exalted. It is not a literal body.
I understand the personal theology you are advancing here. I just do not take it literally.
If you are defining Body of Christ as the church, then why not say so?
These ancient formulations that were come up with after Jesus lived are no longer compelling or persuadable to folks living in an interconnected global culture.
Any native speaker of English knows that term does not connote agreement.
You know very well what I meant. You are trying to twist it around to your perceived benefit.
Let's hope you don't do the same with biblical scripture.
I think I'll go swimming now. Get baptized.
I see that you enjoy speaking in generalities. Things of which you
have no data or proof.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is that the best you can do? You did not even attempt to address my points here, much less give me your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and John 5:24.
Once again you did nothing but run and hide from what I said here:
According to you the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from doing "works."
But that idea is contradicted by what is said here:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
Here we can see that this is saying that "faith" is all that is needed. And here are the words of the Lord and Savior spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He tells them exactly how they are saved:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Both of those verses contradict your ideas as to how the Jews who lived under the law were saved.
And all you can do is to ignore these facts! And then run as fast as you can from them like a dog with his tail between his legs!
Shasta
Well-known member
So you mean the religious establishment that has come to be known as "The Church" and the spirit of false religiosity that so often goes with it. If that is the case then I think you will find many with true faith who do not like religion - which does not mean they do not belong to Churches. My own Church speaks of itself as a "Church for people who don't like Church" because we deal with people who are unchurched. Two of our elders used to be drug addicts who lived on the street. Both are among the godliest and most humble men I know.
Becoming a part of the State was a bad move. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world.
Don't take my word for it. In fact, take no one's word for what Christianity is, was and most likely will be.
Terms like Lord, God, Son of God, Savior of the World were all understood by first century folks to be attributes of Caesar Augustus.
Those qualities were everywhere--carved into the marble facings of the buildings and temples and stamped on the coins.
Don't take my word for it. Study ancient history.
And it was no accident that Paul and the early Christians used those same exalted titles to apply to Jesus as well. In fact, it was an act of high treason.
Study Luke/Acts. He was a Hellenistic Jew who saw Jesus' Kingdom of God for what it was: what the world would be like if God sat on the throne instead of Caesar.
And ALL of the elevated titles of Jesus were applied to him long after his death. The gospel accounts were written from 50 to 100 or so years after Jesus' death. Do some research on this. That should give you plenty of truth.
This was Jesus' answer to Pilate. If you read the very next verse, Jesus assures him that his movement was a nonviolent one, since after he is killed he can assure the prelate that his followers won't retaliate by open rebellion.
Jesus preached a nonviolent Kingdom of God.
Today's believers would rather repeat that "Jesus died for our sins" than to take him seriously about violence against our enemies.
And Jesus would have been surprised to learn that he has become a God of the Gentiles. He insulted Gentiles and called them "dogs" while poking fun at their praying style. And he did not believe in a God of justice that demanded the spilling of blood on the altar.