Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?

[CleverDan]

Beloved in the Lord. My wife, Cattyfan, has asked me to offer a perspective for the discussion you are having on whether Scripture is mandates the execution of adulterers and homosexuals.

Let me see if I understand the theological thought process: using Bible quotations such as Deuteronomy 22:25, posters like Lighthouse are saying that God’s civil law given to His chosen people, Israel, is still in effect, right?

Therefore, even if our country does not allow for the execution of adulterers and homosexuals, that God’s law prevails over any law our country has established, right?

And that if followers of God do not, at least advocate, the enforcement of these laws, then they are not being true Christians, right?

The fundamental assumption in interpreting and applying these verses is that each verse of Scripture is looked at without using other Bible verses to offer clarity, context, elaboration, and explanation. No Bible passage exists in an island of its own without another verse offering aid on interpretation.

One of the strongest Biblical principles I use to help me understand any verse in the Bible is that all Scripture points to Jesus Christ. He became incarnate as man not only to pay the price for our sins with His life, but during His earthly ministry corrected misinterpretations and misapplications of what we call the Old Testament Law.

So certainly Jesus, as God-Man, could have decided to execute the prostitute in John 8: 3-11 (or at the very least have His heavenly Father do that.) But Christ did not even call for the adulterous man to be brought forward. What’s up with that? Was Christ not violating His own Word by not following Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Leviticus 20:10. Did He not live a perfect life? If He did, why didn’t He follow His own Word? Could not have Christ said that His law outranked Roman law?

Or could it be that the verses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus were civil laws that applied only to the theocracy that God set up in the nation of Israel that no longer existed as a sovereign nation, because God had pronounced His judgment against them due to their unrepentant sin? Therefore, Christ’s actions were in accordance with His Father’s will in that the earthly rulers in that area forbid the Jews from executing their own civil law. Therefore, Christ’s goal in John 8:3-11 was not execute the woman for her sin nor to excuse the women’s behavior, but to point out how quickly other sinners wanted to kill another sinner instead of offering her the chance to repent of her sin and turn toward God. Christ brought the women to repentance, forgave her, and sent her on her way exhorting her to leave her life of sin. Christ's example becomes our example.

 

[WizardofOz]

Every human is a sinner, right?

All sin is equal in God's eyes, right?

Guess what - the sin of a homosexual is equal to every person on this planet; no better, no worse.

To condemn a sinner to death is to condemn yourself, regardless of the sin in question, because you are also worthy of the same fate.

A LOT of hypocrites on these boards, I see. Nothing less than I expected.

 

[WizardofOz]

Christ’s goal in John 8:3-11 was not execute the woman for her sin nor to excuse the women’s behavior, but to point out how quickly other sinners wanted to kill another sinner instead of offering her the chance to repent of her sin and turn toward God. Christ brought the women to repentance, forgave her, and sent her on her way exhorting her to leave her life of sin. Christ's example becomes our example.

Very well said.

 

[cattyfan]

I often wonder how many of the people calling for the death of homosexuals have ever really tried to minister to them. I don't mean called them names, or even had one or two conversations. Sometimes ministering takes years.

I have a lesbian friend who I've known for 22 years. She knows where I stand in regard to her lifestyle, but we still talk about all kinds of things, including Christ. When her father died, I was there to lend comfort. When she and her girlfriend broke up, again, I was there to lend comfort...not because I approved of the relationship. She knows I absolutely didn't. I was there because she was hurting, and it was an opportunity to gently remind her of God, while still holding the hand of my friend. She grew up in a Christian house, and I know somewhere in her, those beliefs are still alive. We've even talked about the struggle she has with knowing how she was raised versus how she's living now. My prayer is she will once again embrace those beliefs before her death. If she doesn't, then the Lord will weigh that. In the meantime, I'm doing what I can to point her in the right direction. I've never wavered on my perspective or compromised my beliefs...but I've also never given up on her, or (more importantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rusha]

I often wonder how many of the people calling for the death of homosexuals have ever really tried to minister to them. I don't mean called them names, or even had one or two conversations. Sometimes ministering takes years.

I have a lesbian friend who I've known for 22 years. She knows where I stand in regard to her lifestyle, but we still talk about all kinds of things, including Christ. When her father died, I was there to lend comfort. When she and her girlfriend broke up, again, I was there to lend comfort...not because I approved of the relationship. She knows I absolutely didn't. I was there because she was hurting, and it was an opportunity to gently remind her of God, while still holding the hand of my friend. She grew up in a Christian house, and I know somewhere in her, those beliefs are still alive. We've even talked about the struggle she has with knowing how she was raised versus how she's living now. My prayer is she will once again embrace those beliefs before her death. If she doesn't, then the Lord will weigh that. In the meantime, I'm doing what I can to point her in the right direction. I've never wavered on my perspective or compromised my beliefs...but I've also never given up on her, or (more importantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's great that you have stayed closed and not let something so miniscule change what sounds like a wonderful friendship, Catty.

My best friend all thru high school was a gay man named Vernon and his being gay doesn't change the fact that he was one of the most loyal and comforting person I have ever known.

 

[cattyfan]

It's great that you have stayed closed and not let something so miniscule change what sounds like a wonderful friendship, Catty.

My best friend all thru high school was a gay man named Vernon and his being gay doesn't change the fact that he was one of the most loyal and comforting person I have ever known.

Thank you, but it isn't miniscule. It's important, which is why she and I talk about it. It is a sin, and it saddens me that she lives that way. I don't hide my disapproval or my disappointment. I'm just not willing to let that sin drive me away, or give up on her.

What happened to your friend?

 

[Rusha]

Thank you, but it isn't miniscule. It's important, which is why she and I talk about it. It is a sin, and it saddens me that she lives that way. I don't hide my disapproval or my disappointment. I'm just not willing to let that sin drive me away, or give up on her.

By miniscule, I meant that it shouldn't be enough of a reason to cause conflict and drive a wedge between your friendship.

What happened to your friend?

The last time I saw him was at a high school reunion in 1985. Between my work and taking care of my kids and his moving to a different city, we lost contact.

 

[cattyfan]

The last time I saw him was at a high school reunion in 1985. Between my work and taking care of my kids and his moving to a different city, we lost contact.

Ah...you should see if you can find him again. The Internet makes the world much smaller

 

[Rusha]

Ah...you should see if you can find him again. The Internet makes the world much smaller

I actually went to my high school website, and there was no info on him. I couldn't find anything on any other websites either.

 

[Mystery]

Every human is a sinner, right?

All sin is equal in God's eyes, right?

Guess what - the sin of a homosexual is equal to every person on this planet; no better, no worse.

To condemn a sinner to death is to condemn yourself, regardless of the sin in question, because you are also worthy of the same fate.

A LOT of hypocrites on these boards, I see. Nothing less than I expected.

So, you believe that raping and murdering a child is the same as having 3 pieces of pie or stealing a pen from work?

You are a complete and utter moron, not to mention a disgusting pervert. :vomit:

 

[aikido7]

I was simply wondering why the facts about divorce figures in different states showed that increasing homosexual numbers would help to lower them.

That was what you were suggesting, remember?

"Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the union. The red states are much worse. Maybe what the conservatives need are more homosexuals. Some tolerance could teach the people to be humble."

That point appears to be your opinion and belief.

Regarding my own opinion and belief, which you think "seems tailored to (my) own right wing agenda"...

Yes, I suspect that the vast amount of things written on TOL are opinion and belief, because it's a forum for sharing exactly those things.


Let me also explain my "agenda", upon which you make assumptions based upon your own opinion and belief...

All my opinions about homosexuality are based on personal experience in over 20 years of working and socialising in an almost exclusively homosexual environment.
As a homosexual (depending on your interpretation of the word), ...which I am in the eyes of those who use the word to describe someone who is sexually attracted to those of their own gender..., my 'agenda' is to convey facts which I have experienced in abundance, and to give a biased opinion, which has been formed over the years by those experiences.

I'm not very interested in how some states have a higher divorce rate than others, and how that can be shoehorned in some way into this thread, and made to sound relevent to it.

I'm more interested in helping those who haven't experienced the "gay culture" from the inside (so to speak), to see that there's a great deal more to the homosexual agenda than meets the eye.

I'm more interested in pointing out how liberal values have taken society from having social barriers, safeguards, and a common decency, to being dominated by a free-for-all of deviant and selfish behaviour... all under the banner of "equal rights".
It's the Fall of the Roman Empire all over again.


People are unable to argue against homosexual progress through society, for fear of the iliberal cries of "homophobic hate crime" ringing in their ears.
The so called "freedoms" and "equality" to do whatever they want, to advance the homosexualisation of society, are siren calls of the homo agenda, and the liberal bandwaggon is the perfect vehicle to achieve their goals.


People here will put the biblical arguements against homosexuals (even though this thread is oddly in the politics section), but I approach it from a personal and secular level, with no other agenda.

I was very much a liberal in every respect for most of my life. It's that life which has altered those views, and although I concider myself to have more right wing views than I used to have, these are not what dictate my attitude towards homosexuality.
It's my rather broad and 'full' experience as a homosexual in the company of many other homosexuals which has brought me to where I am now.

We can discuss publically available facts as much as we like, but opinions based upon factual experience should hold a conciderable amount of weight.

Thanks for the reply. Wow--and interesting life you had. And HAVE!

You got a little mixed up, I think. This is not from my post:

"Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the union. The red states are much worse. Maybe what the conservatives need are more homosexuals. Some tolerance could teach the people to be humble."

I don't have any idea if you drink beer or not (actually, I love non-alcoholic beer--it's cheaper and I can drink and drive my Smartcar!), but I would sure like to talk to you over a beer and hear about your story (and your testimony as well!).

 

[countdown]

Beloved in the Lord. My wife, Cattyfan, has asked me to offer a perspective for the discussion you are having on whether Scripture is mandates the execution of adulterers and homosexuals.

Let me see if I understand the theological thought process: using Bible quotations such as Deuteronomy 22:25, posters like Lighthouse are saying that God’s civil law given to His chosen people, Israel, is still in effect, right?

Therefore, even if our country does not allow for the execution of adulterers and homosexuals, that God’s law prevails over any law our country has established, right?

And that if followers of God do not, at least advocate, the enforcement of these laws, then they are not being true Christians, right?

The fundamental assumption in interpreting and applying these verses is that each verse of Scripture is looked at without using other Bible verses to offer clarity, context, elaboration, and explanation. No Bible passage exists in an island of its own without another verse offering aid on interpretation.

One of the strongest Biblical principles I use to help me understand any verse in the Bible is that all Scripture points to Jesus Christ. He became incarnate as man not only to pay the price for our sins with His life, but during His earthly ministry corrected misinterpretations and misapplications of what we call the Old Testament Law.

So certainly Jesus, as God-Man, could have decided to execute the prostitute in John 8: 3-11 (or at the very least have His heavenly Father do that.) But Christ did not even call for the adulterous man to be brought forward. What’s up with that? Was Christ not violating His own Word by not following Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Leviticus 20:10. Did He not live a perfect life? If He did, why didn’t He follow His own Word? Could not have Christ said that His law outranked Roman law?

Or could it be that the verses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus were civil laws that applied only to the theocracy that God set up in the nation of Israel that no longer existed as a sovereign nation, because God had pronounced His judgment against them due to their unrepentant sin? Therefore, Christ’s actions were in accordance with His Father’s will in that the earthly rulers in that area forbid the Jews from executing their own civil law. Therefore, Christ’s goal in John 8:3-11 was not execute the woman for her sin nor to excuse the women’s behavior, but to point out how quickly other sinners wanted to kill another sinner instead of offering her the chance to repent of her sin and turn toward God. Christ brought the women to repentance, forgave her, and sent her on her way exhorting her to leave her life of sin. Christ's example becomes our example.

Thank you for a sound sense post.

 

[countdown]

I often wonder how many of the people calling for the death of homosexuals have ever really tried to minister to them. I don't mean called them names, or even had one or two conversations. Sometimes ministering takes years.

I have a lesbian friend who I've known for 22 years. She knows where I stand in regard to her lifestyle, but we still talk about all kinds of things, including Christ. When her father died, I was there to lend comfort. When she and her girlfriend broke up, again, I was there to lend comfort...not because I approved of the relationship. She knows I absolutely didn't. I was there because she was hurting, and it was an opportunity to gently remind her of God, while still holding the hand of my friend. She grew up in a Christian house, and I know somewhere in her, those beliefs are still alive. We've even talked about the struggle she has with knowing how she was raised versus how she's living now. My prayer is she will once again embrace those beliefs before her death. If she doesn't, then the Lord will weigh that. In the meantime, I'm doing what I can to point her in the right direction. I've never wavered on my perspective or compromised my beliefs...but I've also never given up on her, or (more importantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord sent a grieving lesbian to my door -literally! this past summer and gave me the grace to witness to her of Jesus for several hours. She called on His name on her knees before she left, of her own volition when I read Matthew 11 -something- "Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavey laden, take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for My yoke is easy and My burden is Light, and you shall find rest for your souls".
She knew she was a sinner and she called on His name in her moment of grief. However, she could not follow up at this time with the Lord, as the woman she was with took control of her again [they had broken up because of the other one's -uh...unfaithfulness-but we pray for her and she knew that I did not condemn her and offered her Living Water at His well.
We talked of her past life and it was rotten to the core. Her father molested her and her sister repeatedly as a child and her first boyfriend was a drunk and beat her and was unfaithful, and then she entered into this life with a woman who is also a drunk who abuses her. Jesus died for her to be set free, and she said her father uses the Bible to tell her how bad it is to live as a lesbian- How blasphemous! The man who used her for incest using the Word of God against her...but that is what is done by many on this site, who use the Bible to call for death to fornicators while they are fornicators and have fornicated themselves.

 

[aikido7]

Beloved in the Lord. My wife, Cattyfan, has asked me to offer a perspective for the discussion you are having on whether Scripture is mandates the execution of adulterers and homosexuals.

Let me see if I understand the theological thought process: using Bible quotations such as Deuteronomy 22:25, posters like Lighthouse are saying that God’s civil law given to His chosen people, Israel, is still in effect, right?

Therefore, even if our country does not allow for the execution of adulterers and homosexuals, that God’s law prevails over any law our country has established, right?

And that if followers of God do not, at least advocate, the enforcement of these laws, then they are not being true Christians, right?

The fundamental assumption in interpreting and applying these verses is that each verse of Scripture is looked at without using other Bible verses to offer clarity, context, elaboration, and explanation. No Bible passage exists in an island of its own without another verse offering aid on interpretation.

One of the strongest Biblical principles I use to help me understand any verse in the Bible is that all Scripture points to Jesus Christ. He became incarnate as man not only to pay the price for our sins with His life, but during His earthly ministry corrected misinterpretations and misapplications of what we call the Old Testament Law.

So certainly Jesus, as God-Man, could have decided to execute the prostitute in John 8: 3-11 (or at the very least have His heavenly Father do that.) But Christ did not even call for the adulterous man to be brought forward. What’s up with that? Was Christ not violating His own Word by not following Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Leviticus 20:10. Did He not live a perfect life? If He did, why didn’t He follow His own Word? Could not have Christ said that His law outranked Roman law?

Or could it be that the verses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus were civil laws that applied only to the theocracy that God set up in the nation of Israel that no longer existed as a sovereign nation, because God had pronounced His judgment against them due to their unrepentant sin? Therefore, Christ’s actions were in accordance with His Father’s will in that the earthly rulers in that area forbid the Jews from executing their own civil law. Therefore, Christ’s goal in John 8:3-11 was not execute the woman for her sin nor to excuse the women’s behavior, but to point out how quickly other sinners wanted to kill another sinner instead of offering her the chance to repent of her sin and turn toward God. Christ brought the women to repentance, forgave her, and sent her on her way exhorting her to leave her life of sin. Christ's example becomes our example.

I believe that Jesus "pushed the envelope" for normative Judaism. There are many sayings of his (I am too tired now to provide specifics) when he uses the form "You have heard that_______. but I say to you:_________" It sounds like he wanted to shake up the tired old ways of dealing with human beings. Like the old tribal "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" revenge ploy. He asked us to "resist not evil" and leave behind the "no longer useful" Old Testastament tribal "holiness code" laws and pronouncements in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

To me Jesus was as fresh as a lovely spring rain. But a hard taskmaster, too. The parables give us a glimpse of what he meant when he was talking about the Kingdom of God. The Sermon on the Mount gives us some guidelines--but like I said, they are difficult. Forgiveness, compassion, nonviolence, mercy--all these qualities are from no one else but the Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords. Jesus was God. And because he was divine, his actions were not like most of humanity's. He lived in the world with an open heart and had no use for cruelty or punishment.

I tend to agree with the long tradition of evangelical and mainline biblical scholars who demonstrate the clear differences in the Bible as to what Jesus really said and what was put into his mouth after the Resurrection by the early church. This isn't just New Age crap or anything to do with a "hippie Jesus" like some claim. It's critical historical study of the times, the place, the people, the religion and the politics of the time. It's not theology.

 

[aikido7]

I often wonder how many of the people calling for the death of homosexuals have ever really tried to minister to them. I don't mean called them names, or even had one or two conversations. Sometimes ministering takes years.

I have a lesbian friend who I've known for 22 years. She knows where I stand in regard to her lifestyle, but we still talk about all kinds of things, including Christ. When her father died, I was there to lend comfort. When she and her girlfriend broke up, again, I was there to lend comfort...not because I approved of the relationship. She knows I absolutely didn't. I was there because she was hurting, and it was an opportunity to gently remind her of God, while still holding the hand of my friend. She grew up in a Christian house, and I know somewhere in her, those beliefs are still alive. We've even talked about the struggle she has with knowing how she was raised versus how she's living now. My prayer is she will once again embrace those beliefs before her death. If she doesn't, then the Lord will weigh that. In the meantime, I'm doing what I can to point her in the right direction. I've never wavered on my perspective or compromised my beliefs...but I've also never given up on her, or (more importantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit.

You are a jewel, cattyfan! I believe you are doing some serious Kingdom of God work.
She is lucky to have you close by as a loving Christian friend.

 

[Mystery]

I often wonder how many of the people calling for the death of homosexuals have ever really tried to minister to them. I don't mean called them names, or even had one or two conversations. Sometimes ministering takes years.

I have several of them in the fellowship I lead. Because I share with them the whole gospel, and not part of it, like many on this site, they are being set free.

You people have no idea what the heck you are talking about on this subject. You are nothing but a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks who are part of the problem. I have to deprogram these homos every week friom the crap they pick up at their churches about how it's okay to practice being a homo and a Christian.

Pathetic!

 

[countdown]

So, you believe that raping and murdering a child is the same as having 3 pieces of pie or stealing a pen from work?

You are ignorant.
Beating a child physically and leaving bruises on his body for simple childish behavior, instead of real parenting and training the child up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, is a crime against that child, and many have done violence to children in their care because they are bigger and stronger and can do it with no restraint. Should one get the death sentence for that crime because it is against a helpless child? Why are you so inconsistent in your applications of vengeance against guilty parties? How is rape of a child worse than the physical and mental torture using rods or other instruments abusively, or words of cruelty?

The crimes of violence against the helpless ones are all committed by brethren of the same father, the devil, and God who sees all, will not let the guilty and unrepentent go unpunished. This thread is not about abusive behavior of people with power over others in their care, though, but about the death penalty for one type of fornicators over another ype of fornicators.

 

[aikido7]

I have several of them in the fellowship I lead. Because I share with them the whole gospel, and not part of it, like many on this site, they are being set free.

You people have no idea what the heck you are talking about on this subject. You are nothing but a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks who are part of the problem. I have to deprogram these homos every week friom the crap they pick up at their churches about how it's okay to practice being a homo and a Christian.

Pathetic!

Jesus had some harsh things to say about hypocrites--especially the churched kind. "Pray to the Father in secret," he said (sorry--that means you, too--Promisekeepers!)

Jesus talked about and embodied open-heartedness, justice, mercy and forgiveness.
He said nothing about fags.

If it is not okay to practice being a hypocrite and a Christian, then the churches would be pretty empty on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights....

 

[Mystery]

You are ignorant.

You are a pervert, and completely missed the point, because you have a godless depraved mind.

The "Wiz" said that all sin is the same, and so you cannot punish homos unless you punish every sin the same.

I have already told you, you ignorant twit, that this has NOTHING to do with the sin issue, but you keep ignoring it because you are a godless Christ hating liar and a pig.

You and the other faggot that ,came here at the same time, to spread your filth and your false gospel, do not have a clue what the difference is between God's punishment for ALL sin for ALL time for ALL men, and the punishment in this life that is to maintain order.

Go spread your anti-Christ garbage somewhere else. You are a :troll:

 

[red77]

So, you believe that raping and murdering a child is the same as having 3 pieces of pie or stealing a pen from work?

You are a complete and utter moron, not to mention a disgusting pervert. :vomit:

Really?! You seem to believe that two adults of the same gender having consentual sex is the same as the rape and murder of a child given the penalty you would decree for it, most people with a semblance of sanity would say otherwise and for obvious reasons.....!