Should governments execute murderers?

[Aimiel]

I think if some of the folks who argue for swift, brutal death and a return to OT ways of doing things were actually in power in the West, making the laws, arguing with Christians and criticizing the Bible might be against the law here too.

Now you're cookin' Luke, keep resisting the dark side; you'll get there. :chuckle:

 

[Granite]

I think if some of the folks who argue for swift, brutal death and a return to OT ways of doing things were actually in power in the West, making the laws, arguing with Christians and criticizing the Bible might be against the law here too.

Eventually it would get to that point.

And some folks here get sooooo offended when I make Handmaid's Tale allusions.

 

[Jadant]

Wow, I missed a lot of action on this thread while I was working today! Looks like we've got us a good, old fashioned, TOL difference of opinion.

I agree with D2I, Shimei, and company that the death penalty should be applied when applicable, particularly in the case of murder which we are discussing here. Furthermore, I would agree with them that stoning is biblical, and is therefore one of the methods prescribed by God for carrying out the sentence.

I also took Granite's advice and did a little web search for stoning videos. Although I found many sites that hosted a stoning video, it was the same video on each site. I watched it a few times to make sure that I got the full effect of what Granite was attempting to demonstrate. I don't like saying it, but I must agree with Granite on a couple of points. First, the video was pretty easy to find, as he said. Secondly I will agree that the stoning process in the video is pretty difficult to watch, as it is extremely brutal. I'm quite sure I won't be murdering anybody in an islamic nation any time soon.

On a side note, some of the sites that hosted the video had a song dubbed into the end about Mohammad being a child molester. It's a pretty catchy tune, but really had nothing to do with the stoning itself.

I personally have no desire to participate in a stoning or other form of execution. That would be very difficult to experience, and I'm sure that it would have a lasting impact on anybody involved. I also have no desire to kill a man in self defense, or the defense of my family, but I would do it if the need arose.

A swift and cruel death penalty is not only used to keep murderers from becoming repeat offenders, but it is meant to be a deterrent to those who have not yet committed murder. It is supposed to be gruesome. It's a thing to be avoided. A swift and just death penalty would save many, many lives in this country every year.

While I was poking around the 'net for some good rock tossing videos I stumbled upon the wikipedia excerpt about stoning. According to this passage, the way the muslims stone people isn't the same as the jewish method and D2I seems to be pretty close with his idea about dumping big rocks on the offender.

Furthermore, the Talmud describes the stoning punishment (called Skila סקילה in Hebrew) in different terms than the stereotypical notion of hurling rocks at an immobile defendant/victim. Rather, the defendant is brought to the top of a large scaffold, and thrown off. After that (if the defendant was not already dead) very large rocks were dropped on top of the defendant. The punishment, the harshest one in Talmudic law, was intended to be as quick and painless as possible given the nature of the punishment. (That is, there are quicker and more painless punishments, but the Talmud specifically condemns long, drawn out, and torturous punishments).
source

I won't even pretend to be able to defend wikipedia's assertions on this, it's the first time I've seen anything detailing this method of stoning.

 

[Army of One]

Leviticus 24:23
Then Moses spoke to the children of Israel; and they took outside the camp him who had cursed, and stoned him with stones. So the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

If God really told children to kill, then no, we should not use the Bible.

:doh: That verse is not specifically addressing young kids. The "children of Israel" are the descendants of Israel/Jacob (i.e. Israelites).

 

[Army of One]

Questions for the class that I'd appreciate a straight answer to:

You ever seen footage of a stoning?

Yes, a few times. Certainly not for the faint of heart or those with a weak stomach. And while it can hardly be described as an instant death (though I suppose that that is a possible result), I would still consider it to be swift.

Who still stones people?

How is that relevant, unless you plan on using a "guilt by association" argument?

Why should execution be "swift"?

Because the goal is "Justice", not needless torture.

Why should execution be "brutal"?

If it completely lacks brutality, it loses much of its effect as a deterrent.

 

[Balder]

Interesting that no Christians here are against the death penalty. I somehow don't think this is representative of Christendom, though. I expect on some other forums you might find more of a split between yes and no.

 

[kmoney]

Interesting that no Christians here are against the death penalty. I somehow don't think this is representative of Christendom, though. I expect on some other forums you might find more of a split between yes and no.

I know of at least one Christian on TOL that doesn't support the death penalty. I'm not sure if there are more though. I would guess there are. I can think of a few that I would be surprised if they support it.

 

[Granite]

Yes, a few times. Certainly not for the faint of heart or those with a weak stomach. And while it can hardly be described as an instant death (though I suppose that that is a possible result), I would still consider it to be swift.

How is that relevant, unless you plan on using a "guilt by association" argument?

Because the goal is "Justice", not needless torture.

If it completely lacks brutality, it loses much of its effect as a deterrent.

You know, Army, this passage could be used to describe an interestingly efficient means of killing European people back in the day:

Certainly not for the faint of heart or those with a weak stomach. And while it can hardly be described as an instant death (though I suppose that is a possible result), I would still consider it to be swift.

My oh my, does that read like an inner-office memo penned with cold, reptilian precision. Good for you. You're the first Christian with any brass on this thread, and for that you have my respect. Pos rep for Army coming up. Anyone else who advocates stoning without seeing it firsthand is a paper tiger limp-wristed weak sister. Army of One has cajones and the courage of his convictions. We disagree but he's got zero BS content.

The guilt by association argument is relevant, considering these Muslim bastards are the people closest in capital punishment to what your ideal happens to be. Nice choice of bedfellows. I guess these murderous sadistic tyrants happened to get one thing right. What else did they get right, while we're on the subject? I guess mangling hands (Deut. 25:11-12) is something else you have in common.

 

[kmoney]

Where do you get footage of stonings??

 

[Granite]

Google "stoning."

 

[kmoney]

Google "stoning."

I found a couple but the quality was so bad I couldn't see what was going on. I wouldn't even know it was a stoning unless someone told me what I was watching. :idunno:
I guess I'm not terribly disappointed though....

 

[Army of One]

You know, Army, this passage could be used to describe an interestingly efficient means of killing European people back in the day:

Certainly not for the faint of heart or those with a weak stomach. And while it can hardly be described as an instant death (though I suppose that is a possible result), I would still consider it to be swift.

My oh my, does that read like an inner-office memo penned with cold, reptilian precision. Good for you. You're the first Christian with any brass on this thread, and for that you have my respect. Pos rep for Army coming up. Anyone else who advocates stoning without seeing it firsthand is a paper tiger limp-wristed weak sister. Army of One has cajones and the courage of his convictions. We disagree but he's got zero BS content.

Thanks,...I think. :noid:

The guilt by association argument is relevant, considering these Muslim bastards are the people closest in capital punishment to what your ideal happens to be. Nice choice of bedfellows. I guess these murderous sadistic tyrants happened to get one thing right.

Well, I would be highly surprised if any society managed to not get at least one detail right.

Let me ask you (and if you've answered this already, I apologize), what methods of execution do you find acceptable?

What else did they get right, while we're on the subject? I guess mangling hands (Deut. 25:11-12) is something else you have in common.

I wouldn't exactly consider that something that we have in common. The method in this case might be same, but the cause surely isn't. Muslims chop off hands for committing theft, while the Bible commands that restitution be paid. There is one isolated, specific crime in the Bible for which amputation of a hand is commanded as a punishment, which as you cited is Deut. 25:11,12. Now, whether the severity of the punishment in this case is a result of the woman preventing the "victim" from carrying on the family lineage (which was certainly of utmost importance in that society), or not, I honestly don't know. When/if I do obtain a conclusive understanding of this passage I'll let you know.

 

[Granite]

Thanks,...I think. :noid:

Well, I would be highly surprised if any society managed to not get at least one detail right.

Let me ask you (and if you've answered this already, I apologize), what methods of execution do you find acceptable?I wouldn't exactly consider that something that we have in common. The method in this case might be same, but the cause surely isn't. Muslims chop off hands for committing theft, while the Bible commands that restitution be paid. There is one isolated, specific crime in the Bible for which amputation of a hand is commanded as a punishment, which as you cited is Deut. 25:11,12. Now, whether the severity of the punishment in this case is a result of the woman preventing the "victim" from carrying on the family lineage (which was certainly of utmost importance in that society), or not, I honestly don't know. When/if I do obtain a conclusive understanding of this passage I'll let you know.

Historically I'd favor a firing squad or hanging (done properly). Both methods provide as much swiftness as possible without much of the mob mentality grotesquerie associated with, say, beating people to death with rocks. The intent is to execute as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of fuss and pain. Clean, simple. Lethal injection has too much going against it and the medical sterility of the procedure definitely rubs me the wrong way; don't even get me going on the gas chamber. The electric chair has too much disastrous fubar potential to be considered reliable...and as for beheading, the French Revolutionaries and Nazis were the last to use the guillotine. Not good company to keep for such a notorious device.

Which leaves us the squad, and the gallows.

I appreciate you not pretending Deut. 25:11-12 isn't there or means something it doesn't. Once again, we may not like each other much but you're upfront.:thumb:

 

[GuySmiley]

Google "stoning."

All I got was web sites about the Gratefull Dead.

 

[Servo]

Historically I'd favor a firing squad or hanging (done properly). Both methods provide as much swiftness as possible without much of the mob mentality grotesquerie associated with, say, beating people to death with rocks. The intent is to execute as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of fuss and pain. Clean, simple. Lethal injection has too much going against it and the medical sterility of the procedure definitely rubs me the wrong way; don't even get me going on the gas chamber. The electric chair has too much disastrous fubar potential to be considered reliable...and as for beheading, the French Revolutionaries and Nazis were the last to use the guillotine. Not good company to keep for such a notorious device.

Which leaves us the squad, and the gallows.

I appreciate you not pretending Deut. 25:11-12 isn't there or means something it doesn't. Once again, we may not like each other much but you're upfront.:thumb:

As things are now, concerning those on death row, I would be happy if they would at least pull the cable out from the back of the their TV 's.

If they actually ever execute any one of them with ANY method, then. WOW!

 

[death2impiety]

All I got was web sites about the Gratefull Dead.

:chuckle:

*VIOLENT*
Here it is if anyone really wants to watch it.

 

[JoyfulRook]

All I got was web sites about the Gratefull Dead.

I was trying to think of something clever to say like that, but I couldn't think of anything. :chuckle:

 

[Lighthouse]

Kill 'em all!

 

[Granite]

As things are now, concerning those on death row, I would be happy if they would at least pull the cable out from the back of the their TV 's.

If they actually ever execute any one of them with ANY method, then. WOW!

Indeed. These people are scheduled to die, folks. They can do without HBO.

 

[Real Sorceror]

Historically I'd favor a firing squad or hanging (done properly). Both methods provide as much swiftness as possible without much of the mob mentality grotesquerie associated with, say, beating people to death with rocks.

I'd be fine with a firing squad, and yes, a hanging would have to be done properly. Botched hangings tend to have......unwanted results :Letsargu: