Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

rexlunae

New member
TH ... in all honesty, you've sidestepped most every salient point offered you in this thread to nip at the heels of the weak and aged lingering at the back of the rhetorical pack (and by that I mean offerings, not people). That is not normally your M.O.

Makes me think there is something at play here that doesn't meet the eye that goes beyond the garden variety self loathing accepted by those foolish enough to buy what our would be culture meisters are currently dispensing.

For someone of your intelligence and education to deny and/or ignore vast swathes of history in order to justify this most recent redefinition and following vilification of a symbol is a little out of character.

No one has really offered a salient point supporting the Comfederacy, because there is really a fairly straightforward fact of the matter here. There are a lot of people who do not like the fact of the matter, and so they cling to these defensive alternative self-victimhood narratives.

The salient issue in this case is 'who started the war?'. And 'why did they start it?'. Both of those answers are fairly clear, and they don't depend even a little on Lincoln's words or motives. Even if you accept unilateral secession from the federal union, a point which isn't explicitly addressed in the Constitution either way, firing on a federal fort cannot be seen as anything but an act of war. What must occur from there is either capitulation and disintegration of what remains of the Union, which impacts far more than just one state, or some sort of armed opposition.
 

fzappa13

Well-known member
Courage and bravery don't exist on TOL. It is what it is.

I disagree for reasons that you disagree with ... being a Christian aspirant I think we will all account for every idle word. Those who speak under such an unction have a little different timbre to their offerings.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
I disagree for reasons that you disagree with ... being a Christian aspirant I think we will all account for every idle word. Those who speak under such an unction have a little different timbre to their offerings.

That really, really depends. Doesn't it.
 

bybee

New member
No one has really offered a salient point supporting the Comfederacy, because there is really a fairly straightforward fact of the matter here. There are a lot of people who do not like the fact of the matter, and so they cling to these defensive alternative self-victimhood narratives.

The salient issue in this case is 'who started the war?'. And 'why did they start it?'. Both of those answers are fairly clear, and they don't depend even a little on Lincoln's words or motives. Even if you accept unilateral secession from the federal union, a point which isn't explicitly addressed in the Constitution either way, firing on a federal fort cannot be seen as anything but an act of war. What must occur from there is either capitulation and disintegration of what remains of the Union, which impacts far more than just one state, or some sort of armed opposition.

The American Civil War is long over. As a Yankee I've thought it a just war to preserve the Union and free those who were unjustly enslaved. Obviously it is viewed differently by many in the South?
I owe allegiance to only one flag. And that flag is a symbol of The United States of America.
The battles are over and the folks who fought and died were laid to rest. To disturb their bones is a contemptible desecration.
I am not into aggravating other peoples sensibilities. The Confederate flag means nothing to me. It neither aggravates nor inspires me.
It is not worth a brouhaha.
But Liberals like to fasten on trivialities and make them major issues whilst ignoring things wherein their efforts might make a difference for the good?
I read where some members of Congress wish to make the words "Man and wife" illegal? They wish the words "Spouse and Spouse" to be used instead.
Talk about jousting at windmills....
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
The American Civil War is long over. As a Yankee I've thought it a just war to preserve the Union and free those who were unjustly enslaved. Obviously it is viewed differently by many in the South?
I owe allegiance to only one flag. And that flag is a symbol of The United States of America.
The battles are over and the folks who fought and died were laid to rest. To disturb their bones is a contemptible desecration.
I am not into aggravating other peoples sensibilities. The Confederate flag means nothing to me. It neither aggravates nor inspires me.
It is not worth a brouhaha.
But Liberals like to fasten on trivialities and make them major issues whilst ignoring things wherein their efforts might make a difference for the good?
I read where some members of Congress wish to make the words "Man and wife" illegal? They wish the words "Spouse and Spouse" to be used instead.
Talk about jousting at windmills....

Trust me: A lot of them act as though it's not over and they're biding their time.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The American Civil War is long over. As a Yankee I've thought it a just war to preserve the Union and free those who were unjustly enslaved. Obviously it is viewed differently by many in the South?
I think it's a lot like football down here. You have the people who graduated from Alabama and the larger fan base. The graduates aren't the sort to poison trees any more than the old families here tend to fly that flag. The yahoos? Different story.

I owe allegiance to only one flag. And that flag is a symbol of The United States of America.
The only nation we have going and the best one we've had a hand in.

The battles are over and the folks who fought and died were laid to rest. To disturb their bones is a contemptible desecration.
Absolutely.

I am not into aggravating other peoples sensibilities. The Confederate flag means nothing to me. It neither aggravates nor inspires me.
It is not worth a brouhaha.
There we'll separate a little. But I suppose it's to be understood. To me, on a personal level, that flag is like raising a website dedicated to a horse thief in the family tree who made a fortune doing it. I'd rather people not.

Beyond that and more importantly it is a reminder to a great many people of a great indignity done to their family tree and a second injury done as they moved from free to equal. The evil and enmity advanced under those colors toward blacks and this nation warrants recognition, but not honor.
 

bybee

New member
Well said! I am hoping that we may stop the polarization over things inconsequential in terms of things consequential for the good of our nation.
I love America. We are basically good people who have come together from a wealth of traditions and beliefs and, in general, have managed to become good neighbors and good citizens.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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I love America. We are basically good people who have come together from a wealth of traditions and beliefs and, in general, have managed to become good neighbors and good citizens.
Right on sister!!!
 

IMJerusha

New member
The American Civil War is long over. As a Yankee I've thought it a just war to preserve the Union and free those who were unjustly enslaved.

See, here's part of the problem. We all state and acknowledge that the Civil War is long over but the sad fact is that it isn't. Consider your words "As a Yankee". Why do you consider yourself a Yankee? Why not just an American? And I think the same thing every time I hear a black person state they are African American. No they're not. They're Americans....period. This is what I meant by my earlier post about not being sure that the black community is interested in "full equality."

Obviously it is viewed differently by many in the South?

Yes, depending on their politic and region. Consider Texas which continues to call itself a Republic. Many Southerners still consider themselves Confederates based upon a particular code of living indigenous to the South right down to the way one dresses their grits. And they aren't "yahoos!"

I owe allegiance to only one flag. And that flag is a symbol of The United States of America.

Agreed. But many Southerners see the ability to display the Confederate flag as their Constitutional right in deference to the Southern code of living. To them, it is every bit an act of free expression/free speech and an honoring of ancestry in the preservation of states rights.

The battles are over and the folks who fought and died were laid to rest.

No, Bybee, they merely lost the battle. Their politic and way of life is still very much alive.

To disturb their bones is a contemptible desecration.

Agreed along with headstones and cemeteries.

I am not into aggravating other peoples sensibilities. The Confederate flag means nothing to me. It neither aggravates nor inspires me. It is not worth a brouhaha.

It's not about aggravating peoples sensibilities, Bybee. It's about an agenda being served and it has nothing to do with equality.

But Liberals like to fasten on trivialities and make them major issues whilst ignoring things wherein their efforts might make a difference for the good?

Now you're getting closer to the agenda and yes, Liberals are at the forefront of it. States rights is no triviality, however, or the Framers of the Constitution wouldn't have gone to such lengths to preserve state sovereignty. “Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party....each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress." Thomas Jefferson
So when Town Heretic implied that secession was illegal, he was full of hooey! That's why I suggested he revise his political stance to the left.

I read where some members of Congress wish to make the words "Man and wife" illegal? They wish the words "Spouse and Spouse" to be used instead.
Talk about jousting at windmills....

No, they're not jousting. They're attacking God's Plan and God's Headship, America under God, states rights under the Constitution and individual rights under same. THAT is the agenda and precisely why I state one can not be a Christian and a Democrat! Of course, a Democrat today is nothing like the Democrats of Civil War days; a sad commentary on just how twisted our nation has become. Since I'm living today in this twisted nation, I'll stand by my statement.
 
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Tambora

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But many Southerners see the ability to display the Confederate flag as their Constitutional right in deference to the Southern code of living. To them, it is every bit an act of free expression/free speech and an honoring of ancestry in the preservation of states rights.
True.
 

Tambora

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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Consider your words "As a Yankee". Why do you consider yourself a Yankee? Why not just an American? And I think the same thing every time I hear a black person state they are African American. No they're not. They're Americans....period. This is what I meant by my earlier post about not being sure that the black community is interested in "full equality."
Some wonder why you don't feel the same about the title of "Christian".

Sooooo, that argument doesn't hold much water where you are concerned.
 

bybee

New member
I am a "Party of one"! The designation Yankee was to qualify my point of view for others. Also an admission that I do not necessarily understand the southern point of view.
I am a child of God, female, mother, widow, grandmother, great-grandmother, love my sister and her family. Retired nurse.
Oh, and recently promoted to be a Hall monitor on TOL!
Dang it! I've got a good life!
Blessed am I to be a Christian. Grateful am I to be an American!
 

IMJerusha

New member
Some wonder why you don't feel the same about the title of "Christian".

Sooooo, that argument doesn't hold much water where you are concerned.

You dispute my right to be a Christian holding with all of Scripture and holding with a faith expression that exemplifies same? Where do you get the idea that I don't call myself a Christian?
 

IMJerusha

New member
I am a "Party of one"! The designation Yankee was to qualify my point of view for others. Also an admission that I do not necessarily understand the southern point of view.
I am a child of God, female, mother, widow, grandmother, great-grandmother, love my sister and her family. Retired nurse.
Oh, and recently promoted to be a Hall monitor on TOL!
Dang it! I've got a good life!
Blessed am I to be a Christian. Grateful am I to be an American!

I didn't understand the Southern point of view either for the longest time. States rights, however, is not a Southern point of view but rather an American Constitutional fact; a fact which Abraham Lincoln trampled.
 

bybee

New member
I didn't understand the Southern point of view either for the longest time. States rights, however, is not a Southern point of view but rather an American Constitutional fact; a fact which Abraham Lincoln trampled.

The times called for it. Slavery is an ungodly, inhumane travesty against all of humanity.
All of humanity must continually fight against it.

My thought, if a poor man must steal a loaf of bread to feed his family, then he is not a thief, rather society is guilty of mismanagement and inhumanity.
 
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