Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

2003cobra

New member
I began to answer this post and realized there is likely a complete book that could be written on it. You have been a catalyst for me to begin that process. So I will just give you short answers here for now.

Your version does a very poor job of conveying the original ideas of Paul, in my opinion.
The use of the word "love" instead of "charity", for example, does not convey the agape concept. It's a catch-all word and far too widely misused. When we run across "charity" in the AV, we immediately question the meaning. The result is education; an appreciation of agape love, which is specifically generous actions upon the helpless (how God treats us), and the bonus of understanding the language we speak. If the word "love" is used, it invites misunderstanding and laziness.
Another example is using "end" instead of "fail". ekpiptō means to fall from a position. Prophecies, tongues and knowledge, all supernatural gifts given to the disciples of Jesus to kickstart the Christian church, were no longer required, not when they ended but, when their purpose for being ended.
I will not give more examples here, of which there are many, regarding the excellence and timeless relevance of the KJV.

Context:
The whole chapter is about contrasting those things which, by nature of emanating from God, are perfect and abiding with that which is necessary for a time but will be replaced by that which is perfect.
If you think that Paul is describing only a future or eternal state, why, when speaking of those things which are perfect because they come from Him, (love, faith and hope) does he say; "Now abide these three"? Shouldn't he have said; "These will come at a later time"? God is love. Love does not exist here on earth but that it spills out from heaven upon us. We are judged by how we treat God's unspeakable gifts. God commends His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. His perfect love came to the earth in the person of Jesus. Just because you are unhappy with your life the way it is is no reason to deny God's ability to place perfection here and now on earth. Faith and hope are also gifts from God.

Supernatural tongues have certainly ceased as Paul said the would. The reason for this gift was to fulfill Jesus' prophecy in Matt 24:14KJV before the end of the Jewish economy (the end) and was predicted by Joel. The gospel was preached to witnesses from every nation under heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2) in their own languages.

Supernaturally gifted prophecies, tongues and knowledge have been replaced by something durable and lasting, for all generations, the complete revelation from God. All that is necessary for being saved and to live the Christian life to His glory is now available to us.

Imagine a world where the New Testament had never been written and preserved. Without it we cannot have a full-grown knowledge of God, let alone how to be saved.

The word "perfect" (τέλειος) means complete, mature, full grown. It cannot refer to Christ as it is neuter. It corresponds to that which is "in part". It is the fullness of God's revelation. Everything God intends for us to know has arrived. And because it is from Him, it is perfect.
George, we disagree that the supernatural gifts have passed away. God still gives tongues, interpretations, prophecy, dreams.

And we do not see face-to-face, we still see in a mirror dimly. We do not have a full revelation. If we did, we would not have these arguments.

You seem to think the “perfect” is the Bible. We disagree on that too. If the Bible were perfect, these errors would not exist.

So you have presented a philosophy which is proved wrong by the facts.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
George, we disagree that the supernatural gifts have passed away.

And we do not see face-to-face, we still see in a mirror dimly. We do not have a full revelation. If we did, we would not have these arguments.

You seem to think the “perfect” is the Bible. We disagree on that too. If the Bible were perfect, these errors would not exist.

Which only goes to show how your doubt of the efficacy of the Bible has led you astray from the Truth.
 

Lon

Well-known member
You say that I will stand before the Lord for pointing out the truth that:

1) The Bible never claims to be inerrant
- Naught but an assertion, a whim of yours. I disagree, I think it's 'nature' demands adherence. My father used to say: "We are not the perfect parents, but when they come out, I'll try to get you some. Until then "honor your mother and father." Honoring in that sense meant clearly "stop trying to look for faults." My exact same advice to you regarding the Bible: Quit looking for faults. It isn't MEANT for that. "IF" you'd do what you are SUPPOSED to do with scriptures, this problem would go away. You'd not be hounding this bone of contention "if you just did what you are SUPPOSED to do with scriptures. This thread ain't it. Yes, you will stand before the Lord. Both of us for our words here. You SHOULD act like that matters.
Spoiler
Deuteronomy 6:1-9;24-25 1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

I REALLY wish you knew this Bible and could easily bring these thoughts to mind. You really don't have a scripture one to stand on. :(

You REALLY don't look like you have a leg to stand on before God. It doesn't at all look like you are championing Him, just your own whim.
It 'seems' you are just disgruntled that you are ousted from orthodox Christianity. As I said, Inerrancy IS the default position and Christian position. 200 or 24 people in a liberal UK church do not make any kind of Christian consensus. You are against all of us.


2) We should worship God, not a book
- before you rudely accused, I would have said I 'worshipped' my wife's letters NOT AT ALL meaning that they are more important than her. They 'are' her in the sense she wrote them TO and FOR me. They are precious. NO difference than this letter from God.



3) We should not pretend obvious errors do not exist -
'obvious' to whom? You? This is that "I'm smarter than you, if you disagree" tack.
Sorry, that's just bullying. Repetition doesn't make truth. Let me stop you on your first 'apparent' error. It ISN'T. Guess what? I'm not SUPPOSED to entertain rumor and accusation. If an Elder? 3 or 4 witnesses. I'm not SUPPOSED to entertain your accusation. That is ALL it is. "Pretending" for me, would be to accept your word for it. I cannot. I truly believe you cannot either Nor does virtually the entire church. Some of this 'higher criticism' persists in the UK and it is no wonder it is a shrinking church. We have a few member from that body here on TOL. They are dying off. The Evangelical movement, however, is holding its own if not growing (depends on what stats one is paying attention to).

4) Making inerrancy a core doctrine is a slippery slope that has caused many to stumble
- You've done that in thread. Watchman, in your defense, used profanity. You've made it a HUGE issue and caused men to stumble. This isn't your forum, it is an unapologetically inerrant forum. YOU have made it your only one-trick pony on TOL. Odd that for someone who doesn't believe it is a core doctrine. Again, I believe it can be and is as far as I've seen "MOST" often. All liberal churches don't believe in inerrancy. The scriptures become 'suggestions' with this mindset. I've seen it. Hate it. God is NOT God of these people's lives. He is an add-on to their daily activity, rather than what he/she thinks when waking and going to bed at night. Look at poor Zeke. He believes 'like' you. You KNOW where that theology leads. Show me one guy who believes in inerrancy that is that far removed and doesn't esteem and read God's word daily. You'd likely list Eerdman, but Bart left his Savior and stopped loving him if he ever loved him.

5) False doctrines of man falsely presented as teachings of God damage the kingdom of God.

Disagree. There is no damage where there is no accusation. In fact, I dare to say it is the opposite: Those encouraged to question are no longer dependent upon the Lord Jesus Christ. They don't take John 15:5 literally. For them, it is a 'suggestion' because it is 'opinion' of an Apostle. You intentionally or inadvertently dismantle the authority of God on that grounds. That is why the WHOLE church is against it.

Yes, I prefer that to telling lies about the scriptures and pretending obvious errors can be dismissed as “discrepancies.”
"IF" it were a lie, I'd have something to worry about. I can honestly say "lying" will not be on my docket over this matter.
You go ahead and accuse all you like. You do the same with the scriptures AND His servants. An accuser doesn't worry me.
Standing before my God when trying to honor Him? Yes. Obviously I've blown it watchman. They wanted to kill Jesus, but I'm not as good as my Savior. He was sometimes harsh, but His was perfectly placed. At times His disciples and Apostles were harsh. I'm not sure I do it as well. Yeah, I've a bit of trepidation standing in His hands, but not for lying. :nono:

Do you think about standing before Him with your statements?
- Er, Yes. I've already said so :doh:

And you have the great sin, in that you say you have been to seminary and have had ample opportunity to choose truth or man-made, obviously wrong traditions. To whom much is given, much is required.
Here is the deal, I'm GOING to stand before God over this conversation, so are you. You playing accuser? Good luck with that (I don't believe in luck).
 

2003cobra

New member
Lon, I noticed you gave up long ago trying to reconcile the errors.

You did not even try to explain the three obvious errors in the story of Jairus.

I suppose this is because you know you cannot wish away that error.
 

2003cobra

New member
Which only goes to show how your doubt of the efficacy of the Bible has led you astray from the Truth.

I don’t doubt the efficacy of the scriptures.

I recognize that the false claims of inerrancy, claims not found in the Bible but instead rooted in the fabrications of people, are what is ineffective and untruthful.

I suppose there is no reason to ask you to explain the errors in the texts about Jairus. You do not even try to errors anymore.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon, I noticed you gave up long ago trying to reconcile the errors.
Stop a second, Cobra. Is this REALLY true? How long was it 'before' I stopped.
Short answer: "I've" reconciled them. It doesn't matter if you have. You are responsible for YOUR judgement.
I don't see them as unreconciled. Worse? As I've said, "I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS YOUR JOB!!!!"
It is NOT YOUR JOB to correct scriptures. Advice? Stop. It isn't my job to correct my parents.

Read the scriptures in the spoiler. They clearly tell you what you are SUPPOSED to be doing with scriptures.

You did not even try to explain the three obvious errors in the story of Jairus.
Again, true? :nono: "With you" I haven't addressed them. I don't care to do so. Simply spatting over every off-hand whim of repetition and unfounded accusation isn't my bag. Read the scripture in the spoiler again: You aren't SUPPOSED to be doing that.

I suppose this is because you know you cannot wish away that error.
Well, we already know your reading comprehension cannot be fully trusted so you really shouldn't be 'supposing' from what you read. You SHOULD reread a few more times BEFORE you pronounce judgements. You will stand before God for this too. Your margin of error is enlarged greatly for your short once-over previews/perusals rather than serious studying, paying attention, and reading for depth. Those scriptures in spoiler are well-worth two or three read throughs. God's words are worth so many more thousands of my own.
 

2003cobra

New member
Stop a second, Cobra. Is this REALLY true? How long was it 'before' I stopped.
Short answer: "I've" reconciled them. It doesn't matter if you have. You are responsible for YOUR judgement.
I don't see them as unreconciled. Worse? As I've said, "I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS YOUR JOB!!!!"
It is NOT YOUR JOB to correct scriptures. Advice? Stop. It isn't my job to correct my parents.

Read the scriptures in the spoiler. They clearly tell you what you are SUPPOSED to be doing with scriptures.


Again, true? :nono: "With you" I haven't addressed them. I don't care to do so. Simply spatting over every off-hand whim of repetition and unfounded accusation isn't my bag. Read the scripture in the spoiler again: You aren't SUPPOSED to be doing that.


Well, we already know your reading comprehension cannot be fully trusted so you really shouldn't be 'supposing' from what you read. You SHOULD reread a few more times BEFORE you pronounce judgements. You will stand before God for this too. Your margin of error is enlarged greatly for your short once-over previews/perusals rather than serious studying, paying attention, and reading for depth. Those scriptures in spoiler are well-worth two or three read throughs. God's words are worth so many more thousands of my own.

Ok, Lon, you are going to claim that you explained the errors in the story of Jairus somewhere else, at some other time, likely to a person who was also steeped in the false doctrine of inerrancy.

If you consider that the best you can do, then I will modify my statement to say that you will not try to explain the error to people who might question your fabrications.

As for claiming that I am correcting the scriptures, no — I am just not pretending that they say things they don’t. That is what a follower of the false doctrine of inerrancy must do.
 

Lon

Well-known member
You do not even try to errors anymore.
Error? I don't think so. I knew what you mean. I don't have to pretend you can't write a cogent sentence. I 'can' give you the benefit of the doubt.

As such? I know exactly what you meant here. Point? EVEN IF there is an error in 'your' writing, this: 1 Corinthians 13:5 THEREFORE, simply NOT mentioning the error UNLESS YOU HAVE TO, is the Christian position. Bringing up errors that don't matter? :nono: You are compounding your own situation by being disobedient, imho (truly, it is my opinion, what I think).

We stand before God for our accusations. YOUR position is the accusing prosecuting position. You are not SUPPOSED to be in that position!
 

Lon

Well-known member
Ok, Lon, you are going to claim that you explained the errors in the story of Jairus somewhere else, at some other time, likely to a person who was also steeped in the false doctrine of inerrancy.

If you consider that the best you can do, then I will modify my statement to say that you will not try to explain the error to people who might question your fabrications.

Romans 2:1-16 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


As for claiming that I am correcting the scriptures, no — I am just not pretending that they say things they don’t. That is what a follower of the false doctrine of inerrancy must do.
1 Corinthians 13:5 :think: NOT your job to pretend or NOT pretend. The whole ball is NOT YOUR JOB. Try to get that through your head AND read Deuteronomy 6 again:

Deuteronomy 6:1-9,24,25
1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.


Read it and tell me, what IS your job? What are you SUPPOSED to be doing with scriptures? Accusing them? :nono: You are not SUPPOSED to be doing that!

We BOTH stand before God for this thread. -Lon
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
I don’t doubt the efficacy of the scriptures.

I recognize that the false claims of inerrancy, claims not found in the Bible but instead rooted in the fabrications of people, are what is ineffective and untruthful.

I suppose there is no reason to ask you to explain the errors in the texts about Jairus. You do not even try to errors anymore.

I meant inerrancy. My mistake.

It's a total lack of faith to even suggest that God is unable to keep His word exactly as He wants it to be.

God's word is still as able to save as it ever was. It is to be trusted. It is to be loved. It is to be believed....not slandered and berated. To say God hasn't kept it from the "fabrications of people" is pure evil.

Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

"Yea, hath God said,...." is the original lie given us in Scripture, and it was spoken by satan.

You are doing satan's work for him. You should be proud of yourself.

It's ungodly doubt to suggest that the authors failed to write exactly what God intended them to write. His word endures in spite of those who make false claims against it...in spite of those who are unable to understand what His word is saying. I've watched your slight of hand, and your unwillingness to listen much less change your mind. It's fixed on finding error, so you will see it everywhere.

After I watched your silly statements about the genealogies, I realized you were a shyster, unlearned, and not worth paying attention to. Trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain to a child that trees are alive.

Instead of accusing the Scripture of error, you should be asking believers to explain what is written, and why not every writer is charged with the exact same message. If you ever did that with the Gospels, you'd find out there is a purpose behind each Gospel. They were never meant to highlight the same things. All four spoke of a different attribute of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But, I am convinced you're only here to berate God's word, so I'll not be holding my breath.
 

2003cobra

New member
I meant inerrancy. My mistake.

It's a total lack of faith to even suggest that God is unable to keep His word exactly as He wants it to be.

God's word is still as able to save as it ever was. It is to be trusted. It is to be loved. It is to be believed....not slandered and berated. To say God hasn't kept it from the "fabrications of people" is pure evil.

Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

"Yea, hath God said,...." is the original lie given us in Scripture, and it was spoken by satan.

You are doing satan's work for him. You should be proud of yourself.

It's ungodly doubt to suggest that the authors failed to write exactly what God intended them to write. His word endures in spite of those who make false claims against it...in spite of those who are unable to understand what His word is saying. I've watched your slight of hand, and your unwillingness to listen much less change your mind. It's fixed on finding error, so you will see it everywhere.

After I watched your silly statements about the genealogies, I realized you were a shyster, unlearned, and not worth paying attention to. Trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain to a child that trees are alive.

Instead of accusing the Scripture of error, you should be asking believers to explain what is written, and why not every writer is charged with the exact same message. If you ever did that with the Gospels, you'd find out there is a purpose behind each Gospel. They were never meant to highlight the same things. All four spoke of a different attribute of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But, I am convinced you're only here to berate God's word, so I'll not be holding my breath.

See the part I highlighted?

This misleading and unworthy (of a Christian) insinuation has been used several times in this thread.

Should I repeat how I responded the last time this dishonest approach was used?

Recognizing God did not do a particular thing is not a statement that God is incapable of doing that particular thing.

God could have made the moon out of green cheese. The fact that He did not is not an indication of capability; it is an indication of reality.

God never promised us a perfect book. We don’t have a perfect book. That does not mean God is incapable of providing and preserving a perfect book — it just means that He did not do that.
 

2003cobra

New member
Error? I don't think so. I knew what you mean. I don't have to pretend you can't write a cogent sentence. I 'can' give you the benefit of the doubt.

So my QuickDraw iPad autocorrects and deletes words, like the one in italics in:
“You do not even try to explain errors anymore.”

If you must count coup on typos, you just further diminish your credibility. I don’t typically mention your typos, but you might want the check the spelling of Ehrman.
As such? I know exactly what you meant here. Point? EVEN IF there is an error in 'your' writing, this: 1 Corinthians 13:5 THEREFORE, simply NOT mentioning the error UNLESS YOU HAVE TO, is the Christian position. Bringing up errors that don't matter? :nono: You are compounding your own situation by being disobedient, imho (truly, it is my opinion, what I think).

We stand before God for our accusations. YOUR position is the accusing prosecuting position. You are not SUPPOSED to be in that position!
Stand before God on an accusation against a false, man-made doctrine that is not presented in scripture and is contradicted by scripture? A false doctrine that is a stumbling block to immature Christians?

No, I think the position that you have taken, denying the truth and attacking the messenger, is the position of discomfort.

I will proofread sporadically. If you present that as bothering you, then you are certainly focused on trivial matters to distract attention from your inability to explain obvious errors in the text.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I did ask mods. Yes, if you would edit it, I'd appreciate it. Again, my kids aren't on here but some members kids are so, please even. Thanks for offering.

You're being over dramatic, no child is going to see it and even if they did it's not the full word but if you apologise for you underhanded behaviour I'll remove it.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Oh sure, keep moving the goal post. It is clear that reading me angers you. Rhetoric? Nope. Again, "You just don't like it" is the correct answer.

Let's stay with two donkeys:



Guess what? In EVERY scenario like this, you will stand before God for the accusation. You simply don't know YET are audacious enough to insist it is an error. YOU have to stand before our Lord and Savior for this. There is NO problem standing before Him and not bringing an accusation! :noway: WHY put yourself in the judgement seat? THAT seems insane to me. It really does. Do you EVER stop and think about standing before Him for your words? I do. We are responsible for every careless word and false accusation. It doesn't matter if you 'think' it isn't. You should be 100% resolute because this is a big deal. You and Cobra WILL stand before the Lord for this. No question. Be VERY sure. If wrong? Hebrews 10:31

Was the altar of incense in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?
 

2003cobra

New member
Lon writes:
Read it and tell me, what IS your job? What are you SUPPOSED to be doing with scriptures? Accusing them? You are not SUPPOSED to be doing that!

We BOTH stand before God for this thread. -Lon

I am not accusing the scriptures, Lon.

I am using scriptures to show that the man-made doctrine of inerrancy, a doctrine not found in scripture, is false and contrary to scripture.

You are not supposed to be resisting the truth.

You are not supposed to be presenting the teachings of man as the precepts of God.

And you won’t even try to address the differences, the errors, in the details of the gospels in the story of Jairus. I presented three errors, and you won’t touch them.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Was the altar of incense in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?

Incorrectly worded. Try the actual word itself, which is θυμιατηριον, and then go check for that word and how it is used and where it is located in 2Chr 26:19, (you may just find it located in the hand of an angry king who carried it into the sanctuary to burn incense in the temple by the altar of incense, (του θυσιαστηριου των θυμιαματων), lol).

PS ~ After that go to Ezekiel 8:11.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Was the altar of incense in the Holy of Holies or the Holy place in the temple?

It depends on when you're talking about. It was kept just without and brought in once a year.

Lev. 16:12-13 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: 13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:​
 
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