Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

daqq

Well-known member
Some of the things you say are plain bizarre. Mentally ill people talk like this all the time.

Why did you remove the Testimony of Messiah from my post?

Neither of you know the scripture and therefore do not understand what I said:

Matthew 16:23-27
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get yourself behind me, Satan: you are a stumbling-block unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly disown himself, and take up his own stake, and follow me:
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: and whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Go tear down your soul and destroy it as the Master commands you to do, and in Luke he also tells you that you cannot even be his disciple if you do not take up your own stake and follow him: and when you have sacrificed yourself, and when Elohim has raised you from the dead and given you the truth, then come back and bring the truth with you, and we will see if you even wish to refile your case then. In other words, YOU HAVE NO SKIN IN THE GAME, for it costs you nothing to level your charges and that is clear by the fact that you cannot produce any evidence. The things I know and believe cost me my soul, I had to lay it down; but you, the carnal and blind, claim to see, and refuse to die.

It was the preaching of the cross which I quoted from the Master in that post.
And it is no wonder to me that you find the preaching of the cross to be foolishness:

1 Corinthians 1:18-29 KJV
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone comes unto me, and hates not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 Whosoever does not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Berean Study Bible
Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Q: Do you believe this?

An interlinear is not needed and is not impressive to me. Especially the Apostolic Polygot of the LXX you have used. Its NT text is from the Complutensian Greek New Testament, which is Byzantine in its roots. While I have great affinity for the Byzantine manuscript tradition, the Complutensian Text is generally Romanist in its construction. I am quite adept at the original languages, but rarely see the need to appeal to either, so rather than make this dependent upon a priestly caste of Hebrew and Greek specialists, let's just look at the text in question.

KJV: And brought the a-s-s, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

Our Lord was sat upon their garments, not upon the a-s-s (the colt's mother) and the colt (the foal of a donkey). He sat upon their garments on the colt. (See also Zechariah 9:9; Isaiah 62:11; 2 Sam. 19-20; Gen. 49:10-11; 1 Kings 1:38-40) The presence of the mother likely calmed the never ridden before colt (see Mark and Luke accounts), especially given the commotions of the crowds.

Here Matthew took some pleasure in the fact that the Zechariah account can be read as both mother and foal, so mentions both of them. Matthew was not ignorant of Old Testament idiom, and recognized parallelism when he saw it. Hence, Matthew's mention of the second donkey is due rather to a typically Jewish interest in the form of the text, so that even though Matthew knew the Zechariah reference referred to only one animal, its wording nonetheless lent itself to the mention of the other. The expansive poetic wording of the OT text has given Matthew scope for adding a further creative twist to his concept of “fulfillment.”

No contradictions here between Mark and Luke if one has a fuller grasp of the intent of the writers and a solid grounding in Biblical hermeneutics.

AMR
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
An interlinear is not needed and is not impressive to me. Especially the Apostolic Polygot of the LXX you have used. Its NT text is from the Complutensian Greek New Testament, which is Byzantine in its roots. While I have great affinity for the Byzantine manuscript tradition, the Complutensian Text is generally Romanist in its construction. I am quite adept at the original languages, but rarely see the need to appeal to either, so rather than make this dependent upon a priestly caste of Hebrew and Greek specialists, let's just look at the text in question.

KJV: And brought the a-s-s, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

Our Lord was sat upon their garments, not upon the a-s-s (the colt's mother) and the colt (the foal of a donkey). He sat upon their garments on the colt. (See also Zechariah 9:9; Isaiah 62:11; 2 Sam. 19-20; Gen. 49:10-11; 1 Kings 1:38-40) The presence of the mother likely calmed the never ridden before colt (see Mark and Luke accounts), especially given the commotions of the crowds.

Here Matthew took some pleasure in the fact that the Zechariah account can be read as both mother and foal, so mentions both of them. Matthew was not ignorant of Old Testament idiom, and recognized parallelism when he saw it. Hence, Matthew's mention of the second donkey is due rather to a typically Jewish interest in the form of the text, so that even though Matthew knew the Zechariah reference referred to only one animal, its wording nonetheless lent itself to the mention of the other. The expansive poetic wording of the OT text has given Matthew scope for adding a further creative twist to his concept of “fulfillment.”

No contradictions here between Mark and Luke if one has a fuller grasp of the intent of the writers and a solid grounding in Biblical hermeneutics.

AMR

There are only two Greek versions as far as I can see, the interlinear matches the first five versions given below, the other four are only slightly different:


SBL Greek New Testament 2010
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ’ αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ’ αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Westcott and Hort 1881
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ' αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ' αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Tischendorf 8th Edition
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ’ αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον, καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια, αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐπεκάθισαν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον καὶ τὸν πῶλον καὶ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπεκάθισεν ἐπάνω αὐτῶν


Matthew 21 Interlinear

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Why do you use the KJV when the interlinear is the most accurate? Or if you use the last four because you think they match the KJV more closely why don't you instead use the word for word translation of that Greek text? Word for word is more accurate than any paraphrased Bible surely:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=B...hWKh7QKHaAgB84Q9QEIKzAB#imgrc=T0jprDaZ31tOJM:

Also Zechariah uses the male form of the word donkey, can you explain why Matthew says she?:

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/zechariah/9-9.htm

he-***
Or (shortened) chamor {kham-ore}; from chamar; a male *** (from its dun red) -- (he)***.

http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/2543.htm
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Thanks George, I like this and agree that discrepancies have a logical answer and the differing accounts are exactly what to expect from different witnesses. All the witnesses are right in their statements from their pov and shows they haven't colluded. I like corba's honest and open approach in trying to reconcile these 'apparent' discrepancies and believe we can learn useful things from them. What I don't like is people like daqq and Lon lambasting him rather than discussing the OP (as you have done) which is not Christian to start with. Further to this discussion can you tell me what you think about this:

Berean Study Bible
Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Do you believe Jesus sat on both donkeys at the same time as this sentence suggests?

I agree that, up until now, his attitude and questions have been reasonable and that others are simply not understanding his questions or giving straightforward answers. But there comes a time to assess motivation for discussions. The 'error' mantra, in the face of reasonable solutions, suggests an agenda that rules his reasoning abilities. My faith is always renewed after looking at the real evidence surrounding these so-called errors.

About the two donkeys...

I highly doubt that Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem was ever intended to be a display of horsemanship, even by Zechariah. This is borne out by Zech 9:10KJV which explains the significance of Jesus' lowly entry as King in the same vein as Zech 4:6KJV. It was the ushering in of a new era which would exclude might and power and where Jesus laid claim to Jerusalem without a physical battle.
And I think that the reason the Holy Spirit moved Luke and Mark to record their accounts differently than Matthew was to direct our attention to the amazing specificity of the Zechariah prophecy whereas Matthew had a theological reason. A hyper-literal interpretation forces us to think He was riding two animals at once, or, at least one after the other. But the "and" can also simply designate the introduction of a modifying clause describing the same animal. Zech 9:9KJV Zech 9:9NKJV

The Matthew account tells us that they spread their garments on the two animals. It says that Jesus sat on their garments, not that He sat on two animals at once. And it is not necessary to conclude that He needed to sit on each and every garment that was offered in order to say that He sat on their garments. If we want to get that literal, then why not suggest His disciples took off all their clothes and participated in a naked procession? I think the colt on which Jesus rode was tied to the mature animal which was able to successfully lead it, being led itself by human hand.

It is true, isn't it, that God allows us the freedom to either allow God to speak for Himself, or bring our baggage along to gum up the works. He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. I am convinced that when God speaks He doesn't make mistakes.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I agree that, up until now, his attitude and questions have been reasonable and that others are simply not understanding his questions or giving straightforward answers. But there comes a time to assess motivation for discussions. The 'error' mantra, in the face of reasonable solutions, suggests an agenda that rules his reasoning abilities. My faith is always renewed after looking at the real evidence surrounding these so-called errors.

About the two donkeys...

I highly doubt that Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem was ever intended to be a display of horsemanship, even by Zechariah. This is borne out by Zech 9:10KJV which explains the significance of Jesus' lowly entry as King in the same vein as Zech 4:6KJV. It was the ushering in of a new era which would exclude might and power and where Jesus laid claim to Jerusalem without a physical battle.
And I think that the reason the Holy Spirit moved Luke and Mark to record their accounts differently than Matthew was to direct our attention to the amazing specificity of the Zechariah prophecy whereas Matthew had a theological reason. A hyper-literal interpretation forces us to think He was riding two animals at once, or, at least one after the other. But the "and" can also simply designate the introduction of a modifying clause describing the same animal. Zech 9:9KJV Zech 9:9NKJV

The Matthew account tells us that they spread their garments on the two animals. It says that Jesus sat on their garments, not that He sat on two animals at once. And it is not necessary to conclude that He needed to sit on each and every garment that was offered in order to say that He sat on their garments. If we want to get that literal, then why not suggest His disciples took off all their clothes and participated in a naked procession? I think the colt on which Jesus rode was tied to the mature animal which was able to successfully lead it, being led itself by human hand.

It is true, isn't it, that God allows us the freedom to either allow God to speak for Himself, or bring our baggage along to gum up the works. He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. I am convinced that when God speaks He doesn't make mistakes.

I accept that and believe that it was just the colt He rode with the mother along side to keep the colt calm, but doesn't this support an error by Matthew:

Berean Study Bible
Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Or am I being 'hyper-literal'.

(reminds me of the term hyper-grace)
 

Lon

Well-known member
That is ridiculous for so many reasons. You sound insane. The strangest bit is calling him lonely; that was the funniest most crazy bit of all imo. :darwinsm:


Which all, sadly, makes me wonder if you are a new creation in Christ. No laughing matter. NOBODY on TOL thinks I'm insane or will for what I wrote.
Spoiler
:chuckle: You'll never get it. I embrace my wife's letters too. You are not a wise man, stuck in reading 'about' Jesus instead of knowing him. Stuck in reading for your intellectual pursuits, correcting them INSTEAD of being corrected by them. David loved the words of God and cherished them too. You simply haven't read and cherished them through your life, Cobra. You'll never get it. I love the book because I love the God of the book. You are a man that is left to his own devices, all alone. Sad, but no, I don't wish to join you, despite your loneliness. You are rather invited to come enjoy the fellowship of the faithful. I do wonder if you are a new creation. You aren't displaying such well in thread. The Lord Jesus Christ died on a Cross to save us. Come to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Follow more, correct MUCH MUCH less!

Read it again, it is about walking with God. That's 'crazy?'
:think:
It is really a sad commentary from you, Watchman. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Revelation 3:20. A Christ-less and carnal Christianity? That is crazy. The lonely bit is about how many are into this error theology. Not many.

My post? Crazy? Not by a long shot. Your commentary? Not crazy, just lazy, poor reading, and maybe no relationship with the Savior at all? Sad. It was crazy when Eve listened to the lying serpent and put us in a crazy horrible nightmare mess. Romans 8:20 It is crazy that men reject the Lord Jesus Christ.

Crazy? Maybe it is you, tipping YOUR hand as to what is inside your head? Sticking up for a supposed friend isn't a poor thing. Doing so against the Lord Jesus Christ? Crazy. Read it again. It is all about what Christianity is.
 

2003cobra

New member
That is ridiculous for so many reasons. You sound insane. The strangest bit is calling him lonely; that was the funniest most crazy bit of all imo. :darwinsm:

Yes, calling me lonely is really strange. A wife of 43 years, four children, four grandchildren, lots of friends and travels and resources.

He doesn’t like the message so he attacks the messenger.

Thanks for the post.
 

2003cobra

New member
:chuckle: You'll never get it. I embrace my wife's letters too. You are not a wise man, stuck in reading 'about' Jesus instead of knowing him. Stuck in reading for your intellectual pursuits, correcting them INSTEAD of being corrected by them. David loved the words of God and cherished them too. You simply haven't read and cherished them through your life, Cobra. You'll never get it. I love the book because I love the God of the book. You are a man that is left to his own devices, all alone. Sad, but no, I don't wish to join you, despite your loneliness. You are rather invited to come enjoy the fellowship of the faithful. I do wonder if you are a new creation. You aren't displaying such well in thread. The Lord Jesus Christ died on a Cross to save us. Come to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Follow more, correct MUCH MUCH less!

You wrote You both believe I worship a book (and I do, it is from Him!).


I remain amazed that you worship a book.
 

2003cobra

New member
I could not disagree more. It would appear that, even in the face of reasonable possibilities you are interested more in your doctrine than truth. You are clinging to poor examples that have multiple possible explanations.


These few things I have been involved with here have been terrific and have solidified my belief that, even if we sometimes don't know all the answers, the scriptures are inerrant. Wean the weak if you must lead them astray. They are your best bet. As for me, I am strengthened by this conversation.



This statement is completely untrue. I am surprised you still cling to this irrational thinking. I would have thought you had a better mind than this.



No it doesn't!! It magnifies it. Only Matthew mentions the two animals as does Zechariah.



No, the differences show this without calling them errors. There are no errors. The errors exist only in your mind.

Blessings my friend, but, I find your desire to find the gospels in error overshadow your common sense. You have made a decision and seek to find evidence to support your cause. There is no real evidence.

Thank you for your post, George.

We disagree on these points, and I respect your right to hold your view.

I wonder if we agree that the Bible never claims to be inerrant?
 

Lon

Well-known member
I like corba's honest and open approach in trying to reconcile these 'apparent' discrepancies and believe we can learn useful things from them.
:nono: I completely disagree with you and George and believe some 'questions' aren't innocent nor the intent in making them. I appreciate George, but think he'd given benefit of doubt where none is warranted. In that, he'll quickly (and already is) coming to see who is posturizing and who is sincere in discussion.
What I don't like is people like daqq and Lon lambasting him
Because you like and hold to his ideas. You ALSO have a reading comprehension problem OR haven't bothered to read the whole thread.



rather than discussing the OP (as you have done) which is not Christian to start with.
No, what isn't Christian is false-accusation and shoddy thread work upon which that accusation is made. Try not butting your nose into other people's business and your nose won't get bent out of joint in the first place.
 

Lon

Well-known member
You wrote You both believe I worship a book (and I do, it is from Him!).


I remain amazed that you worship a book.
In context, I worship the being behind the book. Again, read Psalm 19 and DON'T be amazed. See how men of God have always cherished what God says. He 'spoke' you into existence. Try 'love.' I love the Bible and worship the Word of God John 1:1.

You'll cling to whatever you like in your pettiness and PREFER to not ask for clarification. You are into marginalizing and making hasty claims. Not impressed or interested. All part of your MO.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Yes, calling me lonely is really strange. A wife of 43 years, four children, four grandchildren, lots of friends and travels and resources.

He doesn’t like the message so he attacks the messenger.

Thanks for the post.
:doh: "In your theology position."
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Thank you for your post, George.

We disagree on these points, and I respect your right to hold your view.

I wonder if we agree that the Bible never claims to be inerrant?

Thank you for your comments as well.
This site is an interesting place to exchange ideas but often degrades into argumentation and mudslinging.
Usually due to misunderstandings.
Lon really is a good fellow - you guys just got off on the wrong foot.

God bless you and your family. I hope '18 brings much joy and fruit in your life.
If you have been married 43 years, we must be the same age. Poor you!!

I am not able to devote a lot of time here but always enjoy it when I do.
Perhaps we can have that conversation some time.
Any guesses as to which side I will take? lol.

:neck:
 
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2003cobra

New member
Thank you for your comments as well.
This site is an interesting place to exchange ideas but often degrades into argumentation and mudslinging.
Usually due to misunderstandings.
Lon really is a good fellow - you guys just got off on the wrong foot.

God bless you and your family. I hope '18 brings much joy and fruit in your life.
If you have been married 43 years, we must be the same age. Poor you!!

I am not able to devote a lot of time here but always enjoy it when I do.
Perhaps we can have that conversation some time.
Any guesses as to which side I will take? lol.

:neck:
Pleasure corresponding with you.

Yes, I know which side you will take — one you put some thought into.

I am nearly 63. I am retired but still do some consulting. Lots of traveling.
 

2003cobra

New member
:nono: Inerrant goes hand-in-hand with authoritative, inspired, and equating the 'word of God.'
Inerrancy is implicit.

Not at all.

Jesus Himself breathed on Peter, yet Peter did not become inerrant and he said things other than this Word of God.

Your philosophy is not a teaching of scripture, and scripture itself proves inerrancy is a false doctrine.
 
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