Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[2003cobra]

It's very simple, in my opinion.

He told them to go and bring both animals. Matthew, however, only tells us that He requested the colt. His omission of the the other animal does not make what he records wrong; only incomplete.

In Matt 9:18KJV ff Matthew condenses the episode about Jairus' daughter and then again about the woman with the issue of blood.
Luke gives a lot more detail Luke 8:41KJV ff but we do not suggest there is an error simply because Matthew gives less information.

I am reminded of John 21:25KJV. Undoubtedly both Luke and Mark would have left out some details as well.

But your question is a different one. Your question is: Which one of the two things Jesus is recorded as saying, did He, in fact, say?
Could He have said;

"Loose them both and bring them to me. Bring the colt which has never been ridden that I may enter Jerusalem to fulfill prophecy and bring the other one to lead it."

In this case both Matthew and Luke would have recorded correctly different aspects of the same command.

I appreciate your post and understand what you are saying.

For those who believe God breathed the words, these (at best) incomplete statements (in the case of the animals) or contradictory statements (the centurion came and spoke or the centurion did not come and speak) should be a billboard announcing their beliefs are inconsistent with scripture.

I have not brought up the events with the daughter of Jarius as yet. It is one of the few, insignificant errors that I also point out when trying to wean people from the false doctrine of inerrancy.

Your suggestion of what could have been said just leaves all the gospels misquoting Jesus.

And the error in Matthew misinterpreting Zech 9.9 also persists.

I think the credibility of the gospels is enhanced by these minor errors. They show a lack of collusion and revising.

 

[2003cobra]

Well lots of kids will tell you they have seen Santa but that's a diversion to hide from the child mind who and where the real gift givers are, that being within ones own household, I won't post a bunch of historic research because you would still believe in Santa no matter what is presented without revelation, but you do have some fortitude in that you are not bluffed by fear of challenging the dead letter with Santa's helpers.

Yet these grown men and women walked and served with Jesus for years, saw His miracles, heard His teachings, then saw Him die, lost hope, went back to their old lives, and then He rose again.

Then they realized what He had told them was true. And they were filled with God’s Spirit and spread the truth.

Within a generation of the death and resurrection of Jesus, his prophecy of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled. And the believers in Jesus spread out with His message.

We have their records, multiple witnesses, just as we have records of other historic figures.

 

[2003cobra]

Neither of you know the scripture and therefore do not understand what I said:

Matthew 16:23-27
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get yourself behind me, Satan: you are a stumbling-block unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly disown himself, and take up his own stake, and follow me:
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: and whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Go tear down your soul and destroy it as the Master commands you to do, and in Luke he also tells you that you cannot even be his disciple if you do not take up your own stake and follow him: and when you have sacrificed yourself, and when Elohim has raised you from the dead and given you the truth, then come back and bring the truth with you, and we will see if you even wish to refile your case then. In other words, YOU HAVE NO SKIN IN THE GAME, for it costs you nothing to level your charges and that is clear by the fact that you cannot produce any evidence. The things I know and believe cost me my soul, I had to lay it down; but you, the carnal and blind, claim to see, and refuse to die. :chuckle:

What does any of this have to do with the false doctrine of inerrancy?

As best I can tell from your cryptic answers, you don’t view the gospels as history but spiritualized stories in which the facts don’t matter.

I don’t see the gospels that way.

 

[daqq]

What does any of this have to do with the false doctrine of inerrancy?

As best I can tell from your cryptic answers, you don’t view the gospels as history but spiritualized stories in which the facts don’t matter.

I don’t see the gospels that way.

Your cannot hear what I say? even though Elohim has made a little example out of me right before your very eyes in this thread? Indeed the Father confirms the word of His servants: for I am not here for "me", but you appear to be here only for "you".

 

[Lon]

How do you know there was a ‘reliably’ historic George Washington?

Exactly. You both believe I worship a book (and I do, it is from Him!). You both believe inerrancy is wrong.

You have agreement on two things and both disagree with me. I was looking where such went from there.

(You are asking the wrong person about George Washington, you and Zeke would need to have this conversation. I don't doubt he existed).

 

[Lon]

What does any of this have to do with the false doctrine of inerrancy?

1 Corinthians 2:14 :think:

As best I can tell from your cryptic answers, you don’t view the gospels as history but spiritualized stories in which the facts don’t matter.

John 6:63 Oh, I 'think' he sees them as both, that's what inerrancy means. I disagree with Daqq as to who Jesus actually is (I think, I am dyed in wool triune), but on this, I believe I agree with him.

I don’t see the gospels that way.

1 Corinthians 2:13 :think:

 

[daqq]

1 Corinthians 2:14 :think:

John 6:63 Oh, I 'think' he sees them as both, that's what inerrancy means. I disagree with Daqq as to who Jesus actually is (I think, I am dyed in wool triune), but on this, I believe I agree with him.

1 Corinthians 2:13 :think:

Amen, the things seen in the natural creation reveal the things that are unseen.

 

[2003cobra]

Your cannot hear what I say? even though Elohim has made a little example out of me right before your very eyes in this thread? Indeed the Father confirms the word of His servants: for I am not here for "me", but you appear to be here only for "you".

You believe God is using you as an example? To what end?

 

[2003cobra]

Exactly. You both believe I worship a book (and I do, it is from Him!). You both believe inerrancy is wrong.

You have agreement on two things and both disagree with me. I was looking where such went from there.

(You are asking the wrong person about George Washington, you and Zeke would need to have this conversation. I don't doubt he existed).

Amazing! You admit you worship a book! That is so sad for you. And I am truly shocked that you ‘fess up. This may eventually help you correct your misconceptions.

I am not asking the wrong person.

Are inerrant history books necessary to believe George Washington existed?

 

[2003cobra]

1 Corinthians 2:14 :think:

The false doctrine of inerrancy is not from the Spirit of God. It is a man-made fantasy. It is never mentioned in scripture.

John 6:63 Oh, I 'think' he sees them as both, that's what inerrancy means. I disagree with Daqq as to who Jesus actually is (I think, I am dyed in wool triune), but on this, I believe I agree with him.

And this passage makes no comment on the false doctrine you follow.

1 Corinthians 2:13 :think:

The Holy Spirit did not teach you the false doctrine of inerrancy. Do not attribute the work of man to God.

 

[daqq]

You believe God is using you as an example? To what end?

Even "at my own expense" as I said to you: for I am not ashamed to admit when I have been wrong as you appear to be:

You do still cannot see what happened here? I have said some things that were not correct but I was learning as we go and allowing the Word to dismantle any of my previously held notions and preconceptions: I even told you so a few pages back and thanked you for causing me to dig in to this particular problem deeper. I have been all over the place on this now, and it was indeed a great walk through the scripture: but you really did not teach me anything as we went, and you apparently refused to learn anything with me as we walked along through these last few pages. And yet I have been shown something new which was utterly and entirely worth my time while you apparently either have learned nothing or are too prideful to admit you have learned anything. I gave you my final understanding of the whole thing in a nutshell, (at least my final understanding for now, lol), after all my own misconceptions have now been dismantled by the Word right here in front of everyone.



:mario:

I have essentially said, let us walk together, or even let us drive along together toward the truth, as even you yourself said while on your way to six flags, but you have refused because you are not here to learn but to tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are. You therefore are only here for you.

 

[Lon]

Amazing! You admit you worship a book! That is so sad for you. And I am truly shocked that you ‘fess up. This may eventually help you correct your misconceptions.

:chuckle: You'll never get it. I embrace my wife's letters too. You are not a wise man, stuck in reading 'about' Jesus instead of knowing him. Stuck in reading for your intellectual pursuits, correcting them INSTEAD of being corrected by them. David loved the words of God and cherished them too. You simply haven't read and cherished them through your life, Cobra. You'll never get it. I love the book because I love the God of the book. You are a man that is left to his own devices, all alone. Sad, but no, I don't wish to join you, despite your loneliness. You are rather invited to come enjoy the fellowship of the faithful. I do wonder if you are a new creation. You aren't displaying such well in thread. The Lord Jesus Christ died on a Cross to save us. Come to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Follow more, correct MUCH MUCH less!

 

[George Affleck]

I appreciate your post and understand what you are saying.
For those who believe God breathed the words, these (at best) incomplete statements (in the case of the animals) or contradictory statements (the centurion came and spoke or the centurion did not come and speak) should be a billboard announcing their beliefs are inconsistent with scripture.

I could not disagree more. It would appear that, even in the face of reasonable possibilities you are interested more in your doctrine than truth. You are clinging to poor examples that have multiple possible explanations.

I have not brought up the events with the daughter of Jarius as yet. It is one of the few, insignificant errors that I also point out when trying to wean people from the false doctrine of inerrancy.

These few things I have been involved with here have been terrific and have solidified my belief that, even if we sometimes don't know all the answers, the scriptures are inerrant. Wean the weak if you must lead them astray. They are your best bet. As for me, I am strengthened by this conversation.

Your suggestion of what could have been said just leaves all the gospels misquoting Jesus.

This statement is completely untrue. I am surprised you still cling to this irrational thinking. I would have thought you had a better mind than this.

And the error in Matthew misinterpreting Zech 9.9 also persists.

No it doesn't!! It magnifies it. Only Matthew mentions the two animals as does Zechariah.

I think the credibility of the gospels is enhanced by these minor errors. They show a lack of collusion and revising.

No, the differences show this without calling them errors. There are no errors. The errors exist only in your mind.

Blessings my friend, but, I find your desire to find the gospels in error overshadow your common sense. You have made a decision and seek to find evidence to support your cause. There is no real evidence.

 

[patrick jane]

Once again, you show you have no answers — other than “change the subject quickly!”

I'm curious, are you finding these errors in the KJV?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

There is nothing to "debate" as the word implies the one advocating the affirmative actually has made a case. He, unsure even about the teachings of the Trinity in Scripture, has not made a case that is actually debatable. If he cannot come to grips with the essentials of the faith, why bother with things at the periphery?

Too much of what passes for "debate" is nothing more than cavils by those seeking to be seen that degenerate into embarrassing error that brings scandal upon that which we hold dear as the hearer is led into error by the "debater's" own error. Every disagreement is not a call to debate, so also be a good steward of your gifts and time granted by God—not everyone deserves it and you are not obligated to give it unworthily (Romans 12:6-8, Ephesians 5:15-17; Psalm 90:12; Isaiah 49:4).

Lest anyone think I am opposed to actual debate, perhaps this will settle the matter:
debates are a duty.

AMR has now answered you. Go in peace.

AMR

Berean Study Bible
Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Q: Do you believe this?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Neither of you know the scripture.

Go tear down your soul and destroy it as the Master commands you to do.

In other words YOU HAVE NO SKIN IN THE GAME,

The things I know and believe cost me my soul, I had to lay it down; :chuckle:

Some of the things you say are plain bizarre. Mentally ill people talk like this all the time.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You believe God is using you as an example? To what end?

God only knows?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

:chuckle: You'll never get it. I embrace my wife's letters too. You are not a wise man, stuck in reading 'about' Jesus instead of knowing him. Stuck in reading for your intellectual pursuits, correcting them INSTEAD of being corrected by them. David loved the words of God and cherished them too. You simply haven't read and cherished them through your life, Cobra. You'll never get it. I love the book because I love the God of the book. You are a man that is left to his own devices, all alone. Sad, but no, I don't wish to join you, despite your loneliness. You are rather invited to come enjoy the fellowship of the faithful. I do wonder if you are a new creation. You aren't displaying such well in thread. The Lord Jesus Christ died on a Cross to save us. Come to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Follow more, correct MUCH MUCH less!

That is ridiculous for so many reasons. You sound insane. The strangest bit is calling him lonely; that was the funniest most crazy bit of all imo. :darwinsm:

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I could not disagree more. It would appear that, even in the face of reasonable possibilities you are interested more in your doctrine than truth. You are clinging to poor examples that have multiple possible explanations.


These few things I have been involved with here have been terrific and have solidified my belief that, even if we sometimes don't know all the answers, the scriptures are inerrant. Wean the weak if you must lead them astray. They are your best bet. As for me, I am strengthened by this conversation.



This statement is completely untrue. I am surprised you still cling to this irrational thinking. I would have thought you had a better mind than this.



No it doesn't!! It magnifies it. Only Matthew mentions the two animals as does Zechariah.



No, the differences show this without calling them errors. There are no errors. The errors exist only in your mind.

Blessings my friend, but, I find your desire to find the gospels in error overshadow your common sense. You have made a decision and seek to find evidence to support your cause. There is no real evidence.

Thanks George, I like this and agree that discrepancies have a logical answer and the differing accounts are exactly what to expect from different witnesses. All the witnesses are right in their statements from their pov and shows they haven't colluded. I like corba's honest and open approach in trying to reconcile these 'apparent' discrepancies and believe we can learn useful things from them. What I don't like is people like daqq and Lon lambasting him rather than discussing the OP (as you have done) which is not Christian to start with. Further to this discussion can you tell me what you think about this:

Berean Study Bible
Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and laid their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm

Do you believe Jesus sat on both donkeys at the same time as this sentence suggests?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I'm curious, are you finding these errors in the KJV?

We (I believe) are trying to use the original Greek and Hebrew:

Matthew 21:7 They brought the donkey and the colt and put upon them their cloaks and He sat on them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/21-7.htm