Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

[oatmeal]

Well, I meant to get your observations on what I've been taught.

It would take a day to two of study at least. If you are ever moved by the spirit to look into my life and belief, please do so. I hold desire for emotional arguing. Thx

There are plenty of trins who have posted on the threads I have started which teaches "One God" not three in one.

This is a subject that God clarified for me in second or third grade of RCC parochial school, I Timothy 2:5 was the clincher for me.

I have heard many, many arguments for the doctrine of the trinity and some were rather challenging.

However, the more I searched for answers, the clearer it became

God is not a trinity.

Jesus Christ is not God.

"The Holy Spirit" is not a third part of God, but simply another of many, many names God gives to himself.

God had given to us of His spirit, I John 4:13, that gift of holy spirit is not God himself, but some of his essence.

Jesus Christ, although called god in Hebrews 1 and other places is not "the God"

Jesus is the son of God.

I John 3:1-2 Believers are sons/children of God as well. Does being a son of God = God? No, absolutely not.

Does being "god" = the God? No, absolutely not.

Exodus 7:1

John 10:34-35

The trinity is false doctrine, it was the work of those who incorporated pagan theology into Christianity

God is God

Men are men

the one mediator between God and men is the man Christ Jesus

Christ Jesus is the man.

 

[jamie]

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)

1) Jamie
2) Keypurr
3) Pierac
4) csuguy
5) adopted son 77
6) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
7) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
8) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
9) Elected4ever
10) Squeaky
11) Aner
12) Lazy Afternoon
13) truebeliever7
14) jerzy
15) krystyna
16) Krsto
17) Oatmeal
18) meshak

Ok, I corrected your list for you.

 

[intojoy]

There are plenty of trins who have posted on the threads I have started which teaches "One God" not three in one.



This is a subject that God clarified for me in second or third grade of RCC parochial school, I Timothy 2:5 was the clincher for me.



I have heard many, many arguments for the doctrine of the trinity and some were rather challenging.



However, the more I searched for answers, the clearer it became



God is not a trinity.



Jesus Christ is not God.



"The Holy Spirit" is not a third part of God, but simply another of many, many names God gives to himself.



God had given to us of His spirit, I John 4:13, that gift of holy spirit is not God himself, but some of his essence.



Jesus Christ, although called god in Hebrews 1 and other places is not "the God"



Jesus is the son of God.



I John 3:1-2 Believers are sons/children of God as well. Does being a son of God = God? No, absolutely not.



Does being "god" = the God? No, absolutely not.



Exodus 7:1



John 10:34-35



The trinity is false doctrine, it was the work of those who incorporated pagan theology into Christianity



God is God



Men are men



the one mediator between God and men is the man Christ Jesus



Christ Jesus is the man.

Is there plurality in the Godhead?

 

[Totton Linnet]

@Dear Oatie 481

And yet the very scripture which tells you that Jesus is not God tells me that He is. We knew that He is man but Paul's affirmation that He is man does not anul the fact that He is God.

How could He be a fit and proper mediator if He were not God? He could only be an attorney, a negotiator on man's behalf. A defence spokesman, but He could by no means be a suitable mediator....for man He is fully qualified for as the writer of Hebrews says He is made in every way like His brethren...whatever can that mean? He was made like His brethren, doesn't it tell you that before He took the form of flesh and blood He was in another form?......

It is like when Paul says "after the flesh He was of the seed of David" whatever can that mean? is anyone else spoken about like that? according to their humanity they are of such and such ancestry the only thing Paul could mean that He has another nature beside His human nature.

But Christ is fully qualified to negotiate with God on man's behalf, but as man only He is not qualified to mediate. A mediator either means a completely disinterested party [which Christ is not] or else he must be of equal stature and power and authority as the parties between who He is mediating. How could He have the confidence of both parties otherwise?

Even if God were satisfied, how could WE be sure? how can we be infallibly CERTAIN that He has represented to usward God's will in the matter of salvation and satisfaction? The question would certainly arise that being man and not God he has given us an overoptimistic report, biased towards us and not fully representative of God's true position.

Now you say man is man and God is God. Quite so and when man begets he begets man, When God begot He begot God.

 

[fivesense]

What's your dilemma on the trinity?
You're a smart person, would you care to look at my evidence?

Please pm me an email that I can send a manuscript that teaches the plurality if the Godhead, it would be a failure to our lord and savior to try and post everything on TOL

If there was a place in the Scriptures that God said, unequivocally, that He was triune, then perhaps it would be believable.

But since it is absent in the Writings, and all that there is to know about a supposed trinity is based upon human reasonings, how is it possible to believe what does not exist in the Scriptures?

Is it that difficult to believe God? He says, " I am One and there is no other before me" and that is not sufficient?

What is in the way of accepting His declaration,

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him...

A child can understand this truth, it is plainly written and declared.

"and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1C 8:6

Does Christ Jesus share in the Father's deity? Of a certainty, for there is only One begotten of God by Holy Spirit among men. He is Deity, He is God to us.

But is He the One True God?

Jesus called Him, "My God and Father".

Does God have a God?

All this is counter reasoning, in an attempt to put forth the evidence that God has spoken, and there is only one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.

Did His Son create the universe? It is explicitly said that He did. Does that make the statement that there is only One God of none effect? It does not. Sharing in deity does not make one The Deity, for then we also are god, and angels are god, and spirits before the throne are god, and that would make God more than a mere trinity.

It is best to rely on what God has revealed plainly, and not embrace the reasonings of men in this matter. Any "truth" from a source outside of the evidence of Scripture is falsehood.

 

[fivesense]

Is there plurality in the Godhead?

Godhead is not a scriptural term. It is a man-made substitution for theotetos, deity. It was inserted by those who were trinitarian in their beliefs. It occurs but one time in all the New Testament, and is in reference to the full complement of deity indwelling the Christ.

Referring to the term "godhead" outside of this one passage will not avail, as it is singular in its appearance. The KJV has promulgated this error for centuries. If used in human affairs to describe deity, it has a place, but godhead is not in the Writings.

 

[intojoy]

If there was a place in the Scriptures that God said, unequivocally, that He was triune, then perhaps it would be believable.



But since it is absent in the Writings, and all that there is to know about a supposed trinity is based upon human reasonings, how is it possible to believe what does not exist in the Scriptures?



Is it that difficult to believe God? He says, " I am One and there is no other before me" and that is not sufficient?



What is in the way of accepting His declaration,



"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him...



A child can understand this truth, it is plainly written and declared.



"and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1C 8:6



Does Christ Jesus share in the Father's deity? Of a certainty, for there is only One begotten of God by Holy Spirit among men. He is Deity, He is God to us.



But is He the One True God?



Jesus called Him, "My God and Father".



Does God have a God?



All this is counter reasoning, in an attempt to put forth the evidence that God has spoken, and there is only one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.



Did His Son create the universe? It is explicitly said that He did. Does that make the statement that there is only One God of none effect? It does not. Sharing in deity does not make one The Deity, for then we also are god, and angels are god, and spirits before the throne are god, and that would make God more than a mere trinity.



It is best to rely on what God has revealed plainly, and not embrace the reasonings of men in this matter. Any "truth" from a source outside of the evidence of Scripture is falsehood.

Does the bible show a plurality in the Godhead?

 

[Lon]

If there was a place in the Scriptures that God said, unequivocally, that He was triune, then perhaps it would be believable.

You'll have to go beyond your five senses to understand...
Did you pick that name on purpose? You seem reasonable, at least at the moment :up:

But since it is absent in the Writings, and all that there is to know about a supposed trinity is based upon human reasonings, how is it possible to believe what does not exist in the Scriptures?

Simply start with John 1:1 "...was with and was God..."
Both, at the same time even....

Is it that difficult to believe God? He says, " I am One and there is no other before me" and that is not sufficient?

Yes. Agreed, but now read John 1:1 Both.

What is in the way of accepting His declaration,

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him...

A child can understand this truth, it is plainly written and declared.

Yes, unless you are stopping at one sentence, such is simpleton, not simple.

"and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1C 8:6

John 1:1 Go to John 8:58 and John 20:28 while you are it.... :think:

Does Christ Jesus share in the Father's deity? Of a certainty, for there is only One begotten of God by Holy Spirit among men. He is Deity, He is God to us.

John 1:1 "with" (separate) and "was" (same). ---> "Tri-" and "-une."

That's precisely why we are what we are. This much, is absolute and clear.

But is He the One True God?

Jesus called Him, "My God and Father".

Does God have a God?

All this is counter reasoning, in an attempt to put forth the evidence that God has spoken, and there is only one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.

Your reasoning isn't bad, but that is all it is, a summation of your intellect wrestling with scriptures. I believe we have to take John 1:1 at face value and clear revelation and deal rightly with the consequences that there is a God-given dichotomy. Tri-une is nothing more or less than that embrace, therefore anything else, is going beyond what is reasonable and scriptural, no? When you pit your will and your intellect against the whole of Christendom, you will surely be found wanting. I know you guys are trying to wrestle rightly, but such is a bit arrogant, when it goes against the vein, if you don't mind the likewise, but careful disagreement.

It is best to rely on what God has revealed plainly, and not embrace the reasonings of men in this matter. Any "truth" from a source outside of the evidence of Scripture is falsehood.

This is true, but both more apparently against the other. As I began, I end, John 1:1

 

[jamie]

Ok, let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. When Christ (the Word) became human was he still God? Of course not. When someone surrenders an office they no longer hold that office.

Nixon surrendered his office at noon and after noon he was no longer president. Christ surrendered his office and became human and let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. The Most High is God and always has been and always will be. There is only one Most High God.

 

[meshak]

You'll have to go beyond your five senses to understand...
Did you pick that name on purpose? You seem reasonable, at least at the moment :up:


Simply start with John 1:1 "...was with and was God..."
Both, at the same time even....


Yes. Agreed, but now read John 1:1 Both.


Yes, unless you are stopping at one sentence, such is simpleton, not simple.

John 1:1 Go to John 8:58 and John 20:28 while you are it.... :think:


John 1:1 "with" (separate) and "was" (same). ---> "Tri-" and "-une."

That's precisely why we are what we are. This much, is absolute and clear.


Your reasoning isn't bad, but that is all it is, a summation of your intellect wrestling with scriptures. I believe we have to take John 1:1 at face value and clear revelation and deal rightly with the consequences that there is a God-given dichotomy. Tri-une is nothing more or less than that embrace, therefore anything else, is going beyond what is reasonable and scriptural, no? When you pit your will and your intellect against the whole of Christendom, you will surely be found wanting. I know you guys are trying to wrestle rightly, but such is a bit arrogant, when it goes against the vein, if you don't mind the likewise, but careful disagreement.


This is true, but both more apparently against the other. As I began, I end, John 1:1

John 1:1 does not harmonize with Jesus' own word.

You dismiss Jesus' word to justify your doctrine. Why do you do that?

Jesus did not say He was God, not even once.

You are supposed to harmonize with Jesus' own word, not misusing other scriptures to ostracize Christians who are serving Him with their action.

You need to know what Jesus teaches instead of studying what your denomination or organization teaches.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If there was a place in the Scriptures that God said, unequivocally, that He was triune, then perhaps it would be believable.

But since it is absent in the Writings, and all that there is to know about a supposed trinity is based upon human reasonings, how is it possible to believe what does not exist in the Scriptures?

Is it that difficult to believe God? He says, " I am One and there is no other before me" and that is not sufficient?

What is in the way of accepting His declaration,

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him...

A child can understand this truth, it is plainly written and declared.

"and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1C 8:6

Does Christ Jesus share in the Father's deity? Of a certainty, for there is only One begotten of God by Holy Spirit among men. He is Deity, He is God to us.

But is He the One True God?

Jesus called Him, "My God and Father".

Does God have a God?

All this is counter reasoning, in an attempt to put forth the evidence that God has spoken, and there is only one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.

Did His Son create the universe? It is explicitly said that He did. Does that make the statement that there is only One God of none effect? It does not. Sharing in deity does not make one The Deity, for then we also are god, and angels are god, and spirits before the throne are god, and that would make God more than a mere trinity.

It is best to rely on what God has revealed plainly, and not embrace the reasonings of men in this matter. Any "truth" from a source outside of the evidence of Scripture is falsehood.

Except God specifically tells Isaiah that He is the Creator and there is no other, that He is the Saviour and there is no other.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ok, let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. When Christ (the Word) became human was he still God? Of course not. When someone surrenders an office they no longer hold that office.

Nixon surrendered his office at noon and after noon he was no longer president. Christ surrendered his office and became human and let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. The Most High is God and always has been and always will be. There is only one Most High God.

Yet the apostles worshipped Him rightly as Lord and God...we follow the apostles

 

[steko]

Ok, let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. When Christ (the Word) became human was he still God? Of course not. When someone surrenders an office they no longer hold that office.

Nixon surrendered his office at noon and after noon he was no longer president. Christ surrendered his office and became human and let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. The Most High is God and always has been and always will be. There is only one Most High God.

Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.


Being (huparchōn) “existing,” present active participle of huparchō.

Christ was, is and continues to be in essence, GOD.'

Heresy is a willful and prideful preference of one's own opinion against a humble acceptance of what scripture actually says with regard to Theology and Christology.

 

[Lon]

Ok, let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. When Christ (the Word) became human was he still God? Of course not. When someone surrenders an office they no longer hold that office.

Nixon surrendered his office at noon and after noon he was no longer president. Christ surrendered his office and became human and let's say for the sake of discussion that God is not human and humans are not God. The Most High is God and always has been and always will be. There is only one Most High God.

"God" isn't an office. He didn't get elected. "King" yes, but that is a different title. "God" is not an office or title. Whether I am a father or husband, I will always be Lon. Same here. You do know our Southern Baptist doctrine, don't you? You cannot be a Southern Baptist and go against that. :nono: You would rather be someone who attends a Southern Baptist church, but unable to sign the doctrinal statement, therefore, unable to become a member in good standing. Any membership class demands that you agree. You can, however, certainly attend with us.

 

[fivesense]

You'll have to go beyond your five senses to understand...

Your reasoning isn't bad, but that is all it is, a summation of your intellect wrestling with scriptures. I believe we have to take John 1:1 at face value and clear revelation and deal rightly with the consequences that there is a God-given dichotomy. Tri-une is nothing more or less than that embrace, therefore anything else, is going beyond what is reasonable and scriptural, no? When you pit your will and your intellect against the whole of Christendom, you will surely be found wanting. I know you guys are trying to wrestle rightly, but such is a bit arrogant, when it goes against the vein, if you don't mind the likewise, but careful disagreement.


This is true, but both more apparently against the other. As I began, I end, John 1:1

I appreciate your input. I must believe God, and I cannot contend with anyone who has the ability to reason away the truth. You are quite content to hold to your position.

I do not consider believing what God has clearly revealed as wrestling rightly, except it be to undo the barriers to knowing Him. In that case, may He take me down and brake both my arms and legs in the process, if that will get me to submit to His word.

Additionally, your citation of John 1:1 comes from an errant translation. If you need evidence to that end, I can provide that, should truth be what you seek and not vainglory.

 

[Lon]

I appreciate your input. I must believe God, and I cannot contend with anyone who has the ability to reason away the truth. You are quite content to hold to your position.

I do not consider believing what God has clearly revealed as wrestling rightly, except it be to undo the barriers to knowing Him. In that case, may He take me down and brake both my arms and legs in the process, if that will get me to submit to His word.

Um, sorry, no. John 1:1 is quite clear and you are insubordinate to it and the greater body of Christ at large. Don't try and excuse such adverse behavior. There is nothing noble in it.

Additionally, your citation of John 1:1 comes from an errant translation. If you need evidence to that end, I can provide that, should truth be what you seek and not vainglory.

Yep, let's. Show me:

Joh 1:1᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.


After that, reread my post. In it you will find the right reasons for triune believers. Your observations here look like a gloss, frankly, to me. You are the odd-man out on this board, not me. They graciously allow you to be here. Don't abuse it.

 

[intojoy]

I believe the place to start is in the fact that there is a plurality in the Godhead, genesis - man in our image.

That's the starting point.

Does the bible show a plurality of the Godhead? Yes it does.

How?

How plural? How many?

 

[intojoy]

I believe the place to start is in the fact that there is a plurality in the Godhead, genesis - man in our image.

That's the starting point.

Does the bible show a plurality of the Godhead? Yes it does.

How?

How plural? How many?

Does the bible answer those questions? Yes it does

 

[oatmeal]

Is there plurality in the Godhead?

Did you not read my post?

I Timothy 2:5

God is God

men are men

the one mediator between God and men is the man Christ Jesus.

 

[intojoy]

Did you not read my post?

I Timothy 2:5

God is God

men are men

the one mediator between God and men is the man Christ Jesus.

I understand that statement. I also can not overlook the plurality of Elohim. I'm sorry.

I used to believe in the trinity because I was told to believe it. Then it began to convict that I should be able to defend that belief.

I understand that a triune God is an antimony and I have to believe the doctrine whether it makes sense or not because what is important to us is if it is scriptural and not if it is logical. Because there is a plurality taught in scripture about the Godhead I will begin a systematic listing of these passages to be studied in the peace of unity. If there is anything unscriptural I have said thus far, you can stop me. If not, then stop me when I do say something outside of what the bible itself says.

In the end we will still have an antimony.