Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

[Lon]

Since "mainstream Christianity" is riddled with major theological errors believers must learn to read scripture for themselves if they are to get close to the truth.

oatmeal

As long as they indeed are 'capable.' Study study study, but afterwards ask why everybody else in class has a different answer! It is always perplexing to me that God wants the class dummies instead of A students in your warped minds. It is like you want Him to punish us for being faithful with our grades and forgive you for not being that way.

How in the world do you guys twist this around to think you are the faithful few? I really really don't get it. It looks to me like you guys delude yourselves into believing whatever takes your fancy, whether you are able to diagram a sentence correctly or not. Scripture is clear to us that Jesus is God. You aren't going to be able to post ones and twos in random out of context verses with us. 'A' and 'B' students read for context. It comes to us quite readily and it also comes to us quite readily that you can't (though many are too polite to say so). I'd rather have you 'right' and understanding God than to placate you with false humility. I can do sentence diagramming to understand context, you cannot. If you want to think that's bragging somehow instead of assessing, I can only explain so many times that I am not happy you didn't get A's and that particular fact is not my fault. It is all your's, end of story.

 

[oatmeal]

As long as they indeed are 'capable.' Study study study, but afterwards ask why everybody else in class has a different answer! It is always perplexing to me that God wants the class dummies instead of A students in your warped minds. It is like you want Him to punish us for being faithful with our grades and forgive you for not being that way.

How in the world do you guys twist this around to think you are the faithful few? I really really don't get it. It looks to me like you guys delude yourselves into believing whatever takes your fancy, whether you are able to diagram a sentence correctly or not. Scripture is clear to us that Jesus is God. You aren't going to be able to post ones and twos in random out of context verses with us. 'A' and 'B' students read for context. It comes to us quite readily and it also comes to us quite readily that you can't (though many are too polite to say so). I'd rather have you 'right' and understanding God than to placate you with false humility. I can do sentence diagramming to understand context, you cannot. If you want to think that's bragging somehow instead of assessing, I can only explain so many times that I am not happy you didn't get A's and that particular fact is not my fault. It is all your's, end of story.

I don't remember you in any of my English classes.

I don't remember sending you any of my transcripts

Funny that you would presume to know my academic background.

Wait, not funny, quite pitiful, actually.

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

Wow. I'm sorry the point was lost on you. :doh:

I'm sad for you guys Please learn to listen and follow those who have worked hard for the grades, I implore!

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'll take the burning fiery furnace rather than your pitiful theology.

oatmeal

 

[Lon]

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'll take the burning fiery furnace rather than your pitiful theology.

oatmeal

And such is a clear admission. I don't need to see your grades, I've already, as an English teacher, graded quite a few of your posts. Specifically, you lack the sentence diagramming skill for discerning scripture (I don't grade you down for first draft mistakes). It is a 'reading comprehension/grammar recognition' specific grade. Everybody who wants to teach Theology must learn sentence diagramming. I can't see a way around it.

 

[oatmeal]

And such is a clear admission. I don't need to see your grades, I've already, as an English teacher, graded quite a few of your posts. Specifically, you lack the sentence diagramming skill for discerning scripture (I don't grade you down for first draft mistakes). It is a 'reading comprehension/grammar recognition' specific grade. Everybody who wants to teach Theology must learn sentence diagramming. I can't see a way around it.

Well, I am sure it is helpful, but seeing you grievous theological blunders, it is not the cure all.

Reading with believing is something you might want to try.

Like I Timothy 2:5

Acts 2:22-36

Acts 10:38

Matthew 1:18

Acts 3:19-26

When you learn to distinguish between God and His son, then I will know that your have learned how to read with believing.

 

[Lon]

Well, I am sure it is helpful, but seeing you grievous theological blunders, it is not the cure all.

Reading with believing is something you might want to try.

Like I Timothy 2:5

Acts 2:22-36

Acts 10:38

Matthew 1:18

Acts 3:19-26

When you learn to distinguish between God and His son, then I will know that your have learned how to read with believing.

Do you not think we see a difference between Father and Son???
Do you even know what trinitarians believe? It honestly doesn't look like it here.

 

[glorydaz]

Ephesians 2:6

" And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

God says Christians are seated there now.

It has been done, note the past tense.

We are seated in the heavenly places.

What does that mean?

Are you literally there?

Was Jesus literally from heaven? Are we literally seated in the heavens now?

Where are we seated? in Christ.

Where is Christ seated?

Ephesians 1:20 at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:13

Where ever "in the heavenly places in Christ" is we are there as well.

Where are we seated?

oatmeal

He literally came down from heaven for He is God manifest in the flesh. You aren't seated anywhere except on your computer chair, while I am in Christ, and it's glorious here where I am.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm going to get busted by him for not giving the verses so thanks for doing so again. He isn't going to remember in a month though, sadly (he's seen them and others like them before)

It's why Jesus spoke in parables. Those who reject Jesus as God will remain blind nor can they understand God's Word even when it clearly shown them.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[freelight]

doctrine check ups.......

doctrine check ups.......

It's why Jesus spoke in parables. Those who reject Jesus as God will remain blind nor can they understand God's Word even when it clearly shown them.

You'll note there are and have been plenty of followers or believers in Jesus that do not accept Jesus as being 'God' (as defined by traditional-orthodox theology), and are doing just fine in their religious life of service and devotion.

A religious belief in Jesus as 'God' is unnecessary...it being a later doctrinal assumption, development and dogma. This is further complicated over centuries of debate over Jesus human and divine natures, semantics and nuance of language.

To accept Jesus as 'divine' or of 'God' is essential however...since Jesus is the Son of God, being the Anointed One, Messenger, Prophet and Apostle of the Universal Father.

Biblical Unitarianism

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

This quote from Isaiah does not necessarily include a disbelief about Jesus being 'God', but a general rejection of the laws, principles and standards of 'God'. One could apply this passage to whatever preconception they hold, but seeing it in its 'correct context' would be more 'appropriate'



pj

 

[Lon]

You'll note there are and have been plenty of followers or believers in Jesus that do not accept Jesus as being 'God' (as defined by traditional-orthodox theology), and are doing just fine in their religious life of service and devotion.

A religious belief in Jesus as 'God' is unnecessary...it being a later doctrinal assumption, development and dogma. This is further complicated over centuries of debate over Jesus human and divine natures, semantics and nuance of language.

To accept Jesus as 'divine' or of 'God' is essential however...since Jesus is the Son of God, being the Anointed One, Messenger, Prophet and Apostle of the Universal Father.

Biblical Unitarianism



This quote from Isaiah does not necessarily include a disbelief about Jesus being 'God', but a general rejection of the laws, principles and standards of 'God'. One could apply this passage to whatever preconception they hold, but seeing it in its 'correct context' would be more 'appropriate'



pj

Again, I question the reasoning of coming on a trinitarian board and causing such waves. It isn't as though TOL won't find sufficient other drama, but it really does look like those present come here already geered up for this fight.

So while I do agree one may not get this like I believe scripture presents it, to come and over-assert or assert over those of triune persuasion, has got me wondering about motivations and wisdoms.

 

[freelight]

beyond words......

beyond words......

Again, I question the reasoning of coming on a trinitarian board and causing such waves. It isn't as though TOL won't find sufficient other drama, but it really does look like those present come here already geered up for this fight.

So while I do agree one may not get this like I believe scripture presents it, to come and over-assert or assert over those of triune persuasion, has got me wondering about motivations and wisdoms.

Just making dialogue Lon - you may know I'm not one of the die-hard Unitarians always shooting down the Trinity around here, as I offer more expansive views on God's unity and plurality from a multitude of perspectives, because 'God' is the one fundamental reality. Furthermore, 'God' is a reality beyond words. 'God' is even beyond 'theology' ( of course nothing wrong with 'theology' which is but commentary, but sometimes 'theology' can disguise or mar the reality it seeks to represent).

I was challenging glorydaz in his/her assumption of correlating that passage with a dis-belief with Jesus being 'God'. The presupposition is not necessarily true.


pj

 

[oatmeal]

Do you not think we see a difference between Father and Son???
Do you even know what trinitarians believe? It honestly doesn't look like it here.

Since you see a difference than they are not the same!

Since they are not the same they are not identical.

Seeing that the Father is God and Jesus is different they are not identical.

Because there are differences between God and Jesus Christ, they are not identical

God and Jesus Christ are similar, after all the son is the offspring of the Father, but they are not identical

Hebrews 1:3

God is the "stamper" and the son is the "stampee"

Think for once for once in your life.

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

He literally came down from heaven for He is God manifest in the flesh. You aren't seated anywhere except on your computer chair, while I am in Christ, and it's glorious here where I am.

If you are a believer, where are you seated?

Simple question, which you literally avoided!!!!!

You reject the truth, that you might keep your pagan idols, your triune lie.

oatmeal

 

[Lon]

Since you see a difference than they are not the same!

Since they are not the same they are not identical.

Seeing that the Father is God and Jesus is different they are not identical.

oatmeal

Okay, Oatmeal.

Again, this is all you, not scripture. It is the 'logical mind of Oatmeal' (and other unitarians). You are subverting God's word under your logical mind because I've already given you verses which must be true. In order for them to be true, for you, you cannot assert over them just because you 'want' to.

Consider: "Thomas said to Him, My Lord and my God!" in John 20. First of all, in diagramming sentences, you have an object (noun). In this case, the primary sentence structure is: Thomas said to Him. Thomas was talking to Jesus after he just put his fingers in His wounds. "My Lord and My God" is subordinate to Thomas talking directly to Jesus, such that it can only be understood that He is calling Jesus his Lord and God.

Okay, now lets go back to your verses prior that distinguish between Father and Son. I have no problem with you distinguishing at all. I rather, have a problem that 'your logic' rules out verses as given in the gospel of John and others. You have seen them enough on here (quit accusing us of not using them please, we have).

If you can even come to grips in appreciation of the triune position, such would be a step in the right direction. I'm not demanding you see this clearly, I'm asking you and others to quit making waves and being contentious, to listen just a little bit, and maybe actually participating in 'constructively' dialogue and at least understand why we believe what we believe. You really aren't going to change the mind of a trinitarian. We believe these matters for very good reasons, even if you do not assess them that way.

 

[glorydaz]

You'll note there are and have been plenty of followers or believers in Jesus that do not accept Jesus as being 'God' (as defined by traditional-orthodox theology), and are doing just fine in their religious life of service and devotion.

They think they are doing just fine, but Jesus will say, "I never knew you."

A religious belief in Jesus as 'God' is unnecessary...it being a later doctrinal assumption, development and dogma. This is further complicated over centuries of debate over Jesus human and divine natures, semantics and nuance of language.

Not true. The disciples had a hard time understanding that Jesus was God....even though He said quite plainly that to have seen Him was to have seen the Father. They did eventually understand it, however, as shown by Thomas (for example.)

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

And what does Jesus say of those who believe without having seen Him in His risen state? We would be be blessed....and we have been as we read the Word with understanding.

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

To accept Jesus as 'divine' or of 'God' is essential however...since Jesus is the Son of God, being the Anointed One, Messenger, Prophet and Apostle of the Universal Father.

Don't forget He is the Saviour, and that God has said He is the only Saviour. It's odd how you refuse to read the whole of the Word of God, and stick to the select verses that cause you to deny Jesus is the one true God.

This quote from Isaiah does not necessarily include a disbelief about Jesus being 'God', but a general rejection of the laws, principles and standards of 'God'. One could apply this passage to whatever preconception they hold, but seeing it in its 'correct context' would be more 'appropriate'

You must always rest on those things that do not "necessarily include" something or other. Correct context is the whole Word of God, and that's what you reject.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If you are a believer, where are you seated?

Simple question, which you literally avoided!!!!!

You reject the truth, that you might keep your pagan idols, your triune lie.

oatmeal

Your lack of discernment and willful ignorance, in the presence of truth amazes me!
I'm forced to admire such a lack of logic and understanding. You, my friend deserve
the attention and admiration of your peers!

 

[glorydaz]

If you are a believer, where are you seated?

Simple question, which you literally avoided!!!!!

You reject the truth, that you might keep your pagan idols, your triune lie.

oatmeal

I don't avoid what you are unable to understand, I just get tired of explaining it time and time again only to have you reject it. My citizenship is in heaven. We are more than just the tent in which we dwell while here on this earth. However, this is beyond your understanding, so, quite naturally, you are blind to the entire spiritual realm.

You remain in the flesh, so you don't know what it means to be IN THE SPIRIT. Explaining it to you is not possible until you put off that old man of the flesh. You must be born again.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[oatmeal]

Okay, Oatmeal.

Again, this is all you, not scripture. It is the 'logical mind of Oatmeal' (and other unitarians). You are subverting God's word under your logical mind because I've already given you verses which must be true. In order for them to be true, for you, you cannot assert over them just because you 'want' to.

Consider: "Thomas said to Him, My Lord and my God!" in John 20. First of all, in diagramming sentences, you have an object (noun). In this case, the primary sentence structure is: Thomas said to Him. Thomas was talking to Jesus after he just put his fingers in His wounds. "My Lord and My God" is subordinate to Thomas talking directly to Jesus, such that it can only be understood that He is calling Jesus his Lord and God.

Okay, now lets go back to your verses prior that distinguish between Father and Son. I have no problem with you distinguishing at all. I rather, have a problem that 'your logic' rules out verses as given in the gospel of John and others. You have seen them enough on here (quit accusing us of not using them please, we have).

If you can even come to grips in appreciation of the triune position, such would be a step in the right direction. I'm not demanding you see this clearly, I'm asking you and others to quit making waves and being contentious, to listen just a little bit, and maybe actually participating in 'constructively' dialogue and at least understand why we believe what we believe. You really aren't going to change the mind of a trinitarian. We believe these matters for very good reasons, even if you do not assess them that way.

Lon,

Actually, I was a trinitarian for a short time, even defending it, that is until I saw the simplicity of what scriptures teach.

Regarding John 20:28, your meology puts scripture in your trinitarian box. God's truth is bigger than your box.

Tell me, what does the word "elohim" or "theos" mean?

Is it strictly the name of the supreme being? or does God use those words to name/entitle other beings/persons besides himself?

Take Exodus 7:1 for an example.

Or any verse referring to false gods.

Or Jesus referring to OT scriptures about God referring to believers a gods John 10:34-35

Tell me, what does "elohim" and "theos" mean the way God uses those words?

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

I don't avoid what you are unable to understand, I just get tired of explaining it time and time again only to have you reject it. My citizenship is in heaven. We are more than just the tent in which we dwell while here on this earth. However, this is beyond your understanding, so, quite naturally, you are blind to the entire spiritual realm.

You remain in the flesh, so you don't know what it means to be IN THE SPIRIT. Explaining it to you is not possible until you put off that old man of the flesh. You must be born again.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then tell me, where does God say you are seated right now!!!!!

Tell me right now, where God says you are seated right now

That should not be a difficult question to answer seeing I gave you the verses that tell you where Christians are seated right now.

Of course, maybe you cannot answer that because you are not a Christian!!!???

oatmeal

 

[Lon]

Lon,

Actually, I was a trinitarian for a short time, even defending it, that is until I saw the simplicity of what scriptures teach.

Regarding John 20:28, your meology puts scripture in your trinitarian box. God's truth is bigger than your box.

Tell me, what does the word "elohim" or "theos" mean?

Is it strictly the name of the supreme being? or does God use those words to name/entitle other beings/persons besides himself?

Take Exodus 7:1 for an example.

Or any verse referring to false gods.

Or Jesus referring to OT scriptures about God referring to believers a gods John 10:34-35

Tell me, what does "elohim" and "theos" mean the way God uses those words?

oatmeal

Oatmeal, you missed the whole point. There are even scriptures that say the God of my God, etc. You are simply rationalizing and I prefer to just tell God "I hear what you are saying, whether I can figure it out or not."
You don't do that. It is clear Thomas called Jesus Lord and God. You won't listen to God& stay confused if thats the worst thing, but would rather tell God, Thomas cannot possibly be right. Just remember we had this conversation so that you do not falsely accuse anyone on TOL of not using scripture. We do.