ECT Salvation Under the Law

[DAN P]

I am thinking that you do not know what being saved by grace through faith is all about.

This discussion will go no where until youbegin to understand salvation on the principle of grace.

So at this point I just hope we can agree to disagree.

Hi and if that is what you want , fine !!

But I reserve the right to comment when you say any thing about what you write !!

Here is a SOFT BALL for you , Who was the first person SAVED by Grace ??

Can you produce VERSE ??

It was Paul , SO how was Paul SAVED , with and Explanation !!

If you can not you are not a Dispensationalist NOR a so-called MAD !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here is a SOFT BALL for you , Who was the first person SAVED by Grace ??

Can you produce VERSE ??

It was Paul , SO how was Paul SAVED , with and Explanation !!

Abraham was saved by grace before Paul was:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

If you can not you are not a Dispensationalist NOR a so-called MAD !!

Dan, I think that you have a misunderstanding concerning the meaning of the "dispensation of the grace of God."

The beginning of the "dispensation of the grace of God" is not when men first began to be saved by grace. Instead, it refers to the time when the gospel of grace began to be preached.

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

In Bibliotheca Sacra, a journal published by Dallas Theological Seminary, Roy L. Aldrich quotes these three verses (Eph.3:2; Col.1:25; 1 Cor.9:17) and then says, "These passages use the word 'dispensation' (or 'stewardship') to describe the sacred commission or trust to preach the gospel" (Aldrich, "A New Look at Dispensationalism," Bibliotheca Sacra, January-March, 1963, Vol.120, Number 477, p.43).

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

 

[DAN P]

Hi and who then was the first person saved by GRACE ?

In 1 Tim 1:15 it reads , Faithful the word and worthy of all reception that Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS , OF whom I am PROTOS / FIRST !!

And in verse 16 Paul is our PATTERN OF THE ones coming to believe on Him unto Everlasting Life !!

The Dispensation of the Grace of God began with Paul and not the 12 apostles !!

Since OIKONOMIS means OIKOS / HOUSE and NOMOS /LAW , OIKONOMIA means HOUSE LAW period !!

So how was Paul SAVED ??

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

In what way is Paul a "a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting"?

Per 1 Tim 1:16

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In 1 Tim 1:15 it reads , Faithful the word and worthy of all reception that Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS , OF whom I am PROTOS / FIRST !!

It is obvious that Paul was NOT the first sinner who was saved. And he was not the first sinner.

The Dispensation of the Grace of God began with Paul and not the 12 apostles !!

That is correct. It started when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Since OIKONOMIS means OIKOS / HOUSE and NOMOS /LAW , OIKONOMIA means HOUSE LAW period !!

The English word "dispensation" is translated from the Greek word oikonomia, and that word means "the management of a householdor of household affairs; specifically the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship" (Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon).

Paul was given a stewardship responsibility, and that responsibility was to preach the gospel of grace.

So how was Paul SAVED ??

When he believed the same truth that he preached to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In what way is Paul a "a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting"?

Per 1 Tim 1:16

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

I do not think that these verses say that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul is saying that we should look at his own life "first" as an example that demonstrates just how far the grace of the Lord reaches. Paul sees himself as being not worthy to be an apostle because he "persecuted the church of God" (1 Cor.15:9) and describes himself as "chief" or "first in rank" among all sinners. Paul is saying that if the Lord can reach down in grace to save him then anyone can be saved.

So it is in that way that Paul serves as a "pattern" to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[Right Divider]

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

I do not think that these verses say that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul is saying that we should look at his own life "first" as an example that demonstrates just how far the grace of the Lord reaches. Paul sees himself as being not worthy to be an apostle because he "persecuted the church of God" (1 Cor.15:9) and describes himself as "chief" or "first in rank" among all sinners. Paul is saying that if the Lord can reach down in grace to save him then anyone can be saved.

So it is in that way that Paul serves as a "pattern" to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

I know that many people make that same claim, but I just don't find it very convincing with regards to the "pattern" combined with "hereafter".

Pattern with hereafter points to a time element and not a rank.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know that many people make that same claim, but I just don't find it very convincing with regards to the "pattern" combined with "hereafter".

Pattern with hereafter points to a time element and not a rank.

So tell me what you think that Paul is referring to when he wrote that he served as a "pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

 

[DAN P]

In what way is Paul a "a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting"?

Per 1 Tim 1:16

Hi and this is why Paul was the PATTERN and when you see how Paul was saved Not like some claim that those under the Law are saved the same as under GRACE , because Paul was saved by Grace in Gal 1:15 !!

Lets look at 1 Tim 1:16 , But for this reason I was given mercy , in order that in ME PROTOS / FIRST Christ Jesus might show forth all long suffering for a PATTERN of the ONES coming to believe on Him unto Everlasting Life !!

#1, The first verb is I OBTAINED MERCY is min the AORIST TENSE that speaks to the point in time of Paul's salvation , even when Paul was called in Gal 1:15 !!

#2 The second verb tense is MIGHT SHOW FORTH , is also in the AORIST TENSE which points to the beginning of Paul's ministry !!

#3 , The third verb TO THEM THAT SHOULD HEREAFTER is in the Continuous action which speaks to his ministry ALWAYS Preaching the Dispensation of the Grace of God , which Jesus nor Peter did !!

#4 , The fourth verb is BELIEVE is also in the PRESENT TENSE of Continous action in the Dispensation given to Paul and ONLY to Paul and all have Everlasting Life if you believe !!

So you have to know the PATTERN , don't you !Q

dan p

 

[DAN P]

So tell me what you think that Paul is referring to when he wrote that he served as a "pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

Hi and RIGHT DIVIDER has it right and some insist that it means Chief and also remember that under the Law of Moses , Paul was BLAMELESS !

So , Jerry , IF Paul is BLAMELESS , why was Paul a sinner , Phil 3:3-6 ??

And the Greek word PROTOS / FIRST is used 84 times and CHIEF ONLY 9 times !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

So tell me what you think that Paul is referring to when he wrote that he served as a "pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

That he was the beginning of something.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That he was the beginning of something.

Let us look at this passage again:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

Paul was a pattern in regard to the Lord's "longsuffering."

Paul is saying that we should look at his own life "first" as an example that demonstrates the "longsuffering" of the Lord. Paul sees himself as being not worthy to be an apostle because he "persecuted the church of God" (1 Cor.15:9) and describes himself as "chief" or "first in rank" among all sinners. Paul is saying that his life prior to his salvation was the best example of the Lord's longsuffering, that if the Lord can reach down in grace to save him then anyone can be saved.

The "key" to understanding this passage is determining why Paul would say that "in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering." And I believe that I have correctly answered that.

 

[Danoh]

Instead of allowing Unbelieving Israel; Paul; and the world...to continue where things were headed - that terrible Day of the Lord in His Wrath...God saved His chief opposer: Saul, for a pattern to them which should thereafter believe unto life everlasting during this Age of God IN HIS LONGSUFFERING.

Just as Romans thru Philemon, and just as Peter reminded the Little Flock - that Paul in their copies of his writings, relates.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

________________

Verse 16 is also relating that because those who were unlearned found some of those things hard, they twisted them to suit their own ideas to their own destruction, just as they did the other Scriptures they were obviously also unlearned in...

The chapter ending on the same note on which it began...

 

[DAN P]

Let us look at this passage again:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

Paul was a pattern in regard to the Lord's "longsuffering."

Paul is saying that we should look at his own life "first" as an example that demonstrates the "longsuffering" of the Lord. Paul sees himself as being not worthy to be an apostle because he "persecuted the church of God" (1 Cor.15:9) and describes himself as "chief" or "first in rank" among all sinners. Paul is saying that his life prior to his salvation was the best example of the Lord's longsuffering, that if the Lord can reach down in grace to save him then anyone can be saved.

The "key" to understanding this passage is determining why Paul would say that "in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering." And I believe that I have correctly answered that.

Hi and NOT EVEN a good try as post # 69 is the correct answer and you are not even close !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and NOT EVEN a good try as post # 69 is the correct answer and you are not even close !!

Then I guess that we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[DAN P]

Then I guess that we will have to agree to disagree.

Hi and that is what the Holy Sprit does , H e wrote BUT we can agree or disagree what he wrote , that is DUMB !!

If Paul could be saved with a Gospel that can be preached to those uinder the LAW and to those today , EXPLAIN then how Paul was SAVED ??

Or explain how you were SAVED , with verses ??

The burden is on you as you have said that those under the Law and those under the Grace of God can be saved the same way !!

Was Paul a Law keeper , NO !!

If the message is the same , what is it called THE GOSPEL OF THER KINGDOM or is it called THE DISPENSATION of the Grace of God ??

Is there a DIFFERENCE ??

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The burden is on you as you have said that those under the Law and those under the Grace of God can be saved the same way !!

Again, all the saved are saved on the principle of "grace," and it is received on the principle of "faith." This verse says that both those under the law and those who are not are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

It is a fact that Paul makes it plain that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"(Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, it is evident that both those who are under the law as well as those who aren't under the law are saved the same way, and that is by grace through faith.

And since 'works" are not compatible with "grace" then we can know that those under the law were saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS!

Do you agree?

 

[DAN P]

Again, all the saved are saved on the principle of "grace," and it is received on the principle of "faith." This verse says that both those under the law and those who are not are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

It is a fact that Paul makes it plain that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"(Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, it is evident that both those who are under the law as well as those who aren't under the law are saved the same way, and that is by grace through faith.

And since 'works" are not compatible with "grace" then we can know that those under the law were saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS!

Do you agree?

Hi and the ONLY way your post is correct is when all Jews and Gentiles are saved by the the MYSTERY of Rom 16:25 and 26 and Col 1:25 and 26 !!

Other wise though saved before Paul went to Abraham's Bosom when they died !!

Today all saved by the MYSTERY go to Heaven !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and the ONLY way your post is correct is when all Jews and Gentiles are saved by the the MYSTERY of Rom 16:25 and 26 and Col 1:25 and 26 !!

The lady to whom the Lord Jesus spoke to here was saved before the MYSTERY of Romans 16:25 was preached by anyone:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Other wise though saved before Paul went to Abraham's Bosom when they died !!

The Jews were told that they already possessed eternal life (1 Jn,5:11) and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gave eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

The lady I mentioned earlier was saved already and that was before anyone preached the mystery of Romans 16:25. And since she lived under the law she was saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Again, Paul makes it plain that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, it is evident that both those who are under the law as well as those who aren't under the law are saved the same way, and that is by grace through faith.

And since "works" are not compatible with "grace" then we can know that those under the law were saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS!

Do you agree?

 

[DAN P]

Dan, you are totally confused.

The lady to whom the Lord Jesus spoke to here was saved before the MYSTERY of Romans 16:25 was preached by anyone:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

She was saved already and that was before anyone preached the mystery of Romans 16:25. And since she lived under the law she was saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Again, Paul makes it plain that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Therefore, it is evident that both those who are under the law as well as those who aren't under the law are saved the same way, and that is by grace through faith.

And since "works" are not compatible with "grace" then we can know that those under the law were saved by grace through faith APART FROM WORKS!

Do you agree?

Hi and we can agree , when you realize that Luke 7:48-50 is a DIFFERENT CONTEXT than Eph 2:8 and it is YOU who is confused and I agree that you are CONFUSED and are no DISPENSATIOALIST !!

dan p