ECT Salvation Under the Law
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and the Lord told the Jew that her "faith" saved her!
You evidently are not able to understand the meaning of this verse yet:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
As soon as a Jew who lived under the law believed then Christ became the end of the law for righteousness for him:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
At the moment when a Jew who lived under the Law believed then he was saved by grace. And that is exactly what Peter said about his salvation:
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Jn.5:11).
Hi and Acts 15:11 reads , But we believe ( that is Peter speaking ) the GRACE of Lord Jesus Christ to be Saved as they also !!
This means that they are still under the Law and that one day the Jews shall be SAVED as the Gentiles are saved !!
Read it again !!
dan p
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Jesus was asked...
"Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
Jesus answered...
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, if a person keeps the commandments perfectly and doesn't sin then he will earn eternal life. However, Paul makes it plain that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so no one earns eternal life by keeping the commandments:
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).
In the same discourse which you quoted His disciples asked Him:
"Who then can be saved?"
In His answer, the Lord said:
"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Mt.19:26).
Again, those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
Where did you ever get the idea that "works" are compatible with "grace," especially with these words of Paul in view?:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:304).
Every time I read this stuff from you I always wonder (seriously) whether you are missing the point intentionally. I have almost always come to the conclusion that you are because I cannot reconcile the required stupidity of the contrary with your ability to type out the post. That then causes me to wonder what could be your motive. Then, my inability to answer that question calls into question my previous conclusion.
The following question is too stupid to even ask but I'm going to ask it as a test. There is only one answer that anyone with a mind that works could possibly give.
After Moses and before Paul, was obedience to the Law optional or was it required?
If it was required, your doctrine is false.
If it was optional, the whole of Christianity itself is false because Christ would not have needed to die. (There's no need to nail an optional Law to the cross.)
Resting in Him,
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I wonder why you just IGNORED what I wrote. Did you do it intentionally?
Obedience to the law was not a requirement for salvation under the law, as witnessed by what Paul wrote about David:
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).
David was describing himself so according to Paul God imputed righteousness to David apart from works. And of course David lived under the law.
I do not expect you to believe Paul since you obviously do not believe what he wrote in these two places from the same chapter:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
According to your view those under the law were saved by grace through faith but yet they had to do the "works" of the law in order to receive salvation on the principle of grace.
Where did you ever get the idea that "works" are compatible with "grace"?
No, that's what caused me to ask the question I wrote.
There's literally nothing else to say. You are stupid. If what you say is true, Calvary was an unnecessary stage play.
I do not debate stupidity.
Good-bye.
You've missed it - Jesus was merely doing what will later be revealed one aspect of the Law had been intended to reveal - that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
That all are under sin.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The attempt to keep the Law only proved one a sinner.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Towards his point on this throughout Galatians, Paul relates a moment where he had had to remind Peter of this very fact, when Peter put himself back under that no longer the case aspect of "the law for righteousness..." the Law having proven all under sin...
Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The issue under the Law did not void the fact of its' having been given some four hundred and thirty years after God's UNconditional Covenant unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
In fact, that time when God threatened to wipe all Israel out but Moses, was meant to teach the very lesson many refuse to acknowledge - that God will never be through with Israel no matter how they screwed up because of the UNconditional Covenant unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob His promises regarding that physical nation is based on.
Here we are centuries later, surrounded by all sorts of fools asserting that said Unconditional Covenant - which is based on the Cross - is of none effect - that the Israel of God is basically Donald Trump in his endless, lifelong, breaking of his word and backpedaling.
Again...
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
I'll ask you the same question...
After Moses and before Paul was obedience to the Law required or was it optional?
That single question ends the entire debate!
And just to be clear, I do not believe that anyone can ever obey the Law perfectly and that we are all under sin and that, therefore, all salvation is by grace. The question is about the conditions God has in place for being afforded that grace. God is not required to save anyone and it was His life that was given at Calvary which makes any salvation possible in the first place and it is thus God's just prerogative to set the terms of our having a relationship with Him. At one time God, because of the offense at the Tree, required faith and obedience to the Law (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a symbol of the Law and mankind's position under the Law is a result of Adam having eaten of that tree). But now the Law has been taken away, God having been Himself "nailed to a tree" and, in so doing, nailed the Law to the cross as well, thus fulfilling the righteous requirement of the Law (i.e. death)and taken it out of the way. Therefore, we are not only NOT required to obey the Law we are commanded not to do so. Thus salvation is now by grace through faith alone apart from the works of the Law, whereas before Paul, if you rebelled against Moses, God did things like opening up the Earth and sucking whole groups of people alive into Hell.
If the Law was not required there would have been no need for the cross and there certainly would have been no need for Paul and the whole of Christianity is up-ended.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Interplanner
Well-known member
Danoh wrote:
Here we are centuries later, surrounded by all sorts of fools asserting that said Unconditional Covenant - which is based on the Cross - is of none effect - that the Israel of God is basically Donald Trump in his endless, lifelong, breaking of his word and backpedaling.
The UNconditional promise of Gen 12, 15 is "based on the cross"?
Here we are centuries later, surrounded by all sorts of fools asserting that said Unconditional Covenant - which is based on the Cross - is of none effect - that the Israel of God is basically Donald Trump in his endless, lifelong, breaking of his word and backpedaling.
The UNconditional promise of Gen 12, 15 is "based on the cross"?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I may be stupid but the Lord "has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise" (1 Cor.1:27). On the other hand, you are unable to understand the simple principles of salvation by grace, which puts you in this category:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
The principles surrounding salvation by grace are not hard to understand unless a person does not receive the things of the spirit of God. Peter, who lived under the Law, states in no uncertain terms that his salvation was according to grace:
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).
Here Paul makes it plain that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
Those who are spiritual enlightened know that since Peter was saved by "grace" then "works" played no part in his salvation. And he lived under the Law.
You, on the other hand, insist that no one who lived under the Law could be saved unless they did works. And by your ideas you prove that you cannot understand the simple principles of salvation by grace, "because they are spiritually discerned."
So sad!
Hi and Gal 3:28 says that there are NO Jews or Greeks nor Bond or Free nor Male nor Female in Christ Jesus and this verse DEBUCKS your OP !!
Be glad to explain that verse to you , any time you want to here the TRUTH !!
dan p
Hi and what about the calling of the ORIGINAL disciples , how do you see that ??
Each one was called indivually or was it one LUMP ?
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have already shown you that both Jews and Gentiles were baptized into the Body of Christ. Here it is again:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
What is your point and what does it have to do with the subject of this thread?
Thanks!