ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[Arsenios]

There is only one Savior, one atonement, one gospel, one faith, one salvation.

The O.T. Saints know the inheritance of glory in Christ, as surely as the N.T. believers.

Else, how is the event of Moses and Elijah communing with Jesus Christ in the "Transfiguration" on the mount possible? Matthew 17:1-3

Great question... They were obviously not dead, were they? Yet of these, Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven are GREATER than they...

How does that fit?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios

This is an OLD TOPIC.

I think you are on a mis-topic...

Use the Search button to find all the hundreds of posts on it.

Salvation: Old vs New??

EYE FOR AN EYE AND TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deuteronomy 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

This is about Salvation?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

1st of all, it seems the Jews' concept of salvation was a Messiah leading them to throw off the yoke of oppression from Rome and Jesus disappointed them with his turn the other cheek, walk a second mile, don't live by the sword teaching. They may have gotten that from the OT, I'm not sure.

The NT concept of salvation and eternal life looks like this: love God and man and you will inherit eternal life. That life starts today if you turn from your evil ways and stop living in wickedness and continues as one gets set free from the bondage of sin which brings death. If one walks in the light, rises up to walk in newness of life, and continues therein until death then this eternal life carries forward into the afterlife.

This is how Jesus put it in Mt. 25:34 and Lk. 10:25: hen shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

None of this has changed since then.

Lovely post...

So did OT Saints have what NT Saints have?

Is there ANYTHING the NT Saints have that the OT Saints did NOT have and could not have?

Nice to see you back on the boards, Krsto...

Arsenios

 

[Nang]

Great question... They were obviously not dead, were they?

They had died and were revealed to be alive with God the Son in glorious form . . Right?

Yet of these, Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven are GREATER than they...

How does that fit?

Is that what Jesus said about Moses and Elijah? No, Jesus used those words in regard to John the Baptist; not to be understood in a literal or graded sense, but in the sense that all souls eventually and finally identified as the sons of Christ's Kingdom are EQUALLY the most beloved of God, being found in His Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6

 

[Krsto]

Lovely post...

So did OT Saints have what NT Saints have?

Is there ANYTHING the NT Saints have that the OT Saints did NOT have and could not have?

Nice to see you back on the boards, Krsto...

Arsenios

In terms of salvation from sin (that is, the effects/bondage of sin), YES! Power to overcome sin, rise to walk in newness of life, be conformed to the image of Christ, have the Law written on the heart instead of stone. Goodness, the list goes on. I wouldn't say none of this happened in the OT, but if it did it was like an OT saint living in the New Covenant. Which reminds me, seems we have more Christians today living in the Old Covenant than Jews back then who lived in the New Covenant.

 

[Krsto]

Lovely post...

So did OT Saints have what NT Saints have?

Is there ANYTHING the NT Saints have that the OT Saints did NOT have and could not have?

Nice to see you back on the boards, Krsto...

Arsenios

You knew I couldn't stay away long

 

[Cross Reference]

This seems to imply that no man had peace with God? I'm of the opinion only the wicked needed a way to have peace with God. Jesus did say he came not for the well but for the sick, no?

That's right. Peace as in being reconciled to Him for the reasons stated.

 

[Cross Reference]

They had died and were revealed to be alive with God the Son in glorious form . . Right?

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, . . . . ." Jude 1:9 (KJV)


But not Elijah, as I believe you should agree, was NOT dead when caught up to Heaven. So, I believe you have a dilemma on your 'hands'.

 

[Cross Reference]

When Jesus brought them forth with Himself at His Resurrection...

Great question...

Arsenios

Exactly!! If there is an argument about that it will come from non-Christians.

 

[Cross Reference]

Since he persecuted the Christians.

Since he, what??? Did you understand the question?

 

[Cross Reference]

There is only one Savior, one atonement, one gospel, one faith, one salvation.

The O.T. Saints know the inheritance of glory in Christ, as surely as the N.T. believers.

Else, how is the event of Moses and Elijah communing with Jesus Christ in the "Transfiguration" on the mount possible? Matthew 17:1-3

Quite obviously, if what God did, He did so without your permission.

 

[Aimiel]

So did OT Saints have what NT Saints have? Is there ANYTHING the NT Saints have that the OT Saints did NOT have and could not have?

We have God living INSIDE of us. Before Christ shed His Blood and gave us entrance into The Holy of Holies there could be no relationship between sinful men and a Holy God. Christ cleansed our sin. God cannot inhabit sinful man. He inhabits our flesh (Christians) and no one in The Old Testament had His Spirit inside of them. He was alongside, ONLY.

 

[Cross Reference]

Is that what Jesus said about Moses and Elijah? No, Jesus used those words in regard to John the Baptist; not to be understood in a literal or graded sense, but in the sense that all souls eventually and finally identified as the sons of Christ's Kingdom are EQUALLY the most beloved of God, being found in His Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6

Again, wrong! Read it again, for the first time:

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." Luke 7:28 (KJV)

Trans: No greater prophet born on earth was greater than JTB, including Moses and Elijah, for their effectiveness in the purposes of God. But the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than these three.

 

[Cross Reference]

1st of all, it seems the Jews' concept of salvation was a Messiah leading them to throw off the yoke of oppression from Rome and Jesus disappointed them with his turn the other cheek, walk a second mile, don't live by the sword teaching. They may have gotten that from the OT, I'm not sure.

The NT concept of salvation and eternal life looks like this: love God and man and you will inherit eternal life. That life starts today if you turn from your evil ways and stop living in wickedness and continues as one gets set free from the bondage of sin which brings death. If one walks in the light, rises up to walk in newness of life, and continues therein until death then this eternal life carries forward into the afterlife.

This is how Jesus put it in Mt. 25:34 and Lk. 10:25: hen shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

None of this has changed since then.

Since salvation is of the heart vs 27, by the blood of Jesus Christ the OT speaks of and if embraced, would soon be fulfilled. "Hang in there for just a little longer", was the message Jesus was attempting to convey..

 

[Cross Reference]

This seems to imply that no man had peace with God? I'm of the opinion only the wicked needed a way to have peace with God. Jesus did say he came not for the well but for the sick, no?

Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but simply redeem them. His shed blood accomplished that which made peace between them and God by canceling out the penalty for Adam's transgression [they could not do] that bound all men to separation from the Holiness of the Presence of God. cf Rom. 5:1 KJV.

 

[Cross Reference]

We have God living INSIDE of us. Before Christ shed His Blood and gave us entrance into The Holy of Holies there could be no relationship between sinful men and a Holy God. Christ cleansed our sin. God cannot inhabit sinful man. He inhabits our flesh (Christians) and no one in The Old Testament had His Spirit inside of them. He was alongside, ONLY.

You didn't exhaust the issue but came close enough that should shut the mouths of detractors.

Question: Are we not then not given to protect His new indwelling Life and will not our love TO Him be revealed in doing so?

 

[Aimiel]

I wasn't trying to shut anyone's mouth or exhaust a subject, merely trying to answer his question in the least amount of words.

 

[Cross Reference]

I wasn't trying to shut anyone's mouth or exhaust a subject, merely trying to answer his question in the least amount of words.

I know that. You did well. So why the come back?

 

[Arsenios]

They had died and were revealed to be alive with God the Son in glorious form . . Right?

Well, they were there on Tabor, speaking with Christ... I do not recall their "glorious form" being mentioned...

Is that what Jesus said about Moses and Elijah? No, Jesus used those words in regard to John the Baptist; not to be understood in a literal or graded sense, but in the sense that all souls eventually and finally identified as the sons of Christ's Kingdom are EQUALLY the most beloved of God, being found in His Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6

Jesus said that John the Baptist is the greatest of ALL the Prophets... And Orthodoxy affirms this, because all the other Prophets merely prophesied His coming in words, but John actually laid his hands on Him and baptized Him...

After establishing Johns greatness among all the OT Prophets, Christ then went on to say that the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is GREATER than John...

So the question remains: How is that fact of Scripture accounted for? What is it that we have that John the Baptist did not, that Christ would say such a thing?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In terms of salvation from sin (that is, the effects/bondage of sin), YES! Power to overcome sin, rise to walk in newness of life, be conformed to the image of Christ, have the Law written on the heart instead of stone. Goodness, the list goes on. I wouldn't say none of this happened in the OT, but if it did it was like an OT saint living in the New Covenant. Which reminds me, seems we have more Christians today living in the Old Covenant than Jews back then who lived in the New Covenant.

You are KILLING me!
You are SOoooo RIGHT!
But don't you be jumping the gun, you Dog!
Back up a step here!

So newness of life, the Law written in our hearts instead of stone, conformed to the IMAGE [Icon] of Christ... Are you saying that the OT Saints were living in the New Covenant THEN, at that time? So were they living as we should be living?

What was it that WE HAVE that they did NOT HAVE?

This is funner'n ping-pong!

Arsenios