Salvation: A Free Gift From God, or an Imposition?

Robert Pate

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What about the unjust, though?

Paul says we are to use the law as a tutor to bring unbelievers to Christ.

That doesn't sound like the law is abolished to me.

Also, Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law, only to fulfill it.

By the way, Eph 2:6 says nothing about law, only this:

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:4-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:4-7&version=NKJV


I meant Ephesians 2:15.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in the ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" Ephesians 2:15.

The new man or the Christian, now lives by faith in Christ. "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17 and not by laws, rules or religion.
 

JudgeRightly

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I meant Ephesians 2:15.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in the ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" Ephesians 2:15.

The new man or the Christian, now lives by faith in Christ. "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17 and not by laws, rules or religion.
Alright. But that's for Christians.

But what about non-Christians?
 

Robert Pate

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Alright. But that's for Christians.

But what about non-Christians?

Unbelievers are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned to hell. But for the Christian there are no laws or rules, simply because God sees them as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Where there are laws and rules there is judgment and condemnation.
 

Jacob

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Jesus abolished the law after he fulfilled it, according to the apostle Paul, Ephesians 2:6.

Christians are no longer required to live according to laws or rules. This is why Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. We live by faith in Christ and his Gospel. The law has been done away because it is contrary to us, no one can do it or keep it.
Shalom.

To the contrary, Jesus kept the Law, and fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. He observed the Law, and taught us, Israel, to do the same. He did not come to abolish the Law (or the Prophets). We can fulfill the requirement of the Law. See Romans 8:4. Is it because there is no law against the things of the Spirit? This does not mean that there is no Law.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Robert Pate

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As usual, Robert, you ignore the point I was making, and just move on to your usual moving of the goal posts.

Your double-mindedness (James 1:8) does not go unnoticed. :AMR:

AMR


You pervert God's grace.

Salvation is a free gift from God, not an imposition, this is why Paul wrote, "Whosoever (meaning all, anyone, everyone) that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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As usual, Robert, you ignore the point I was making, and just move on to your usual moving of the goal posts.

Your double-mindedness (James 1:8) does not go unnoticed. :AMR:

AMR

You pervert God's grace.

Salvation is a free gift from God, not an imposition, this is why Paul wrote, "Whosoever (meaning all, anyone, everyone) that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

I guess this needs repeating.

As usual, Robert, you ignore the point I was making, and just move on to your usual moving of the goal posts.

Your double-mindedness (James 1:8) does not go unnoticed, especially when you continue to provide ample evidence. :AMR:

1. To recap, you accused another of putting words into your mouth, being a mind-reader.
2. You were challenged to examine your hundreds of threads where you do the very same thing you complain to another about.
3. Rather than respond to the direct issue, you move on with distractions hoping the actual issue is forgotten.

Just once, why not just actually answer the charges laid at your feet? All this hopscotch you are doing only draws more attention to your unwillingness to accept correction.

Maybe Robert is a computer program:

IF response_from_AMR
call(random_antiCalvinist_quote)
ELSE
call(next_blog_post_newthread)
END

AMR
 

Robert Pate

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I guess this needs repeating.

As usual, Robert, you ignore the point I was making, and just move on to your usual moving of the goal posts.

Your double-mindedness (James 1:8) does not go unnoticed, especially when you continue to provide ample evidence. :AMR:

1. To recap, you accused another of putting words into your mouth, being a mind-reader.
2. You were challenged to examine your hundreds of threads where you do the very same thing you complain to another about.
3. Rather than respond to the direct issue, you move on with distractions hoping the actual issue is forgotten.

Just once, why not just actually answer the charges laid at your feet? All this hopscotch you are doing only draws more attention to your unwillingness to accept correction.

Maybe Robert is a computer program:

IF response_from_AMR
call(random_antiCalvinist_quote)
ELSE
call(next_blog_post_newthread)
END

AMR


The Bible which I believe is God's word, says everything that I need to say.

The Bible says that you are a perverter of his word. There is not one scripture in the whole Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

God's word condemns Calvinism and all of the other "isms" that are anti-Gospel. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. You cannot believe that. Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9.
 

JudgeRightly

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Here is part 1 of my response to your post. Sorry for the delay.

God has no unfulfilled desires, else He is not God. What God wants, God gets.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV

So are you calling Paul (if not God Himself, as all scripture is God-breathed) a liar?

That Scripture accommodates human finitude in language we can understand is not a warrant to assume in error. Obviously if God wants something and it does not happen, then God really, really, did not want it to happen, for He is not impotent.

Again, calling Paul a liar?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV

See, you've missed a principle that God taught (or tried to teach) to Israel. See if you can spot it in the following passage.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying:“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:1-10&version=NKJV

Did you see it?

I'll make it a bit more visible this time.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:1-10&version=NKJV

Before we get into "repent" vs "relent," understand this:

If God says, thinks, and plans to do something, and then He does not do it, that does not make Him impotent.

If God says, thinks, and plans to not do something, and then He does do it, that does not make Him impotent

Rather, in either case, it shows that God is alive, that He can adapt to a situation, that He is more powerful than you make Him out to be, saying that He didn't really intend to do or not do that which he said he would not or would do. In fact, you make it seem that God is a liar, when He is clearly not.

Now, the NKJV uses (wrongly) the word, "relent."

The word used in the Hebrew, however, is the word for repent.

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Relent implies that God makes idle threats, but He does not. He follows through on His promises, otherwise we would never take Him seriously.

Try not to elevate righteousness as something more important

God seems to place righteousness pretty highly, or at least David does... In fact, it's so important, that it's the foundation of God's throne!

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face. - Psalm 89:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm89:14&version=NKJV

Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. - Psalm 97:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm97:2&version=NKJV

than all of God's attributes, for they all inhere one another. God is His attributes. All of them.

Which ones? Quantitative? or Qualitative?
A) Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, impassable, immutable (all quantitative)
OR
B) Living, Loving, Good, Personal, Relational (all qualitative)

(Here's a hint: One of those options was only taught by Plato)

Hence these sort of wants of God spoken of in Scripture must mean something other than your common assumption.

Oh really? You're starting to sound like one of those eastern mystics.

God must want something far greater than what it is stated. Not all are saved. All would be saved if God genuinely wanted it to be so.

So you're really calling God a liar, is what you're saying?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV

But I do agree with you, that not all are nor will be saved. Most will reject God.

Hence why I quoted:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

A parent often allows the child to do something the parent knows will be harmful to a child. Ultimately the child learns the lesson, say, touching the hot pot. Obviously the parent's wants are distinguishable. On the one hand, the parent wants the child to behave properly, on the other hand the parent wants the child to learn the lesson of bad behavior. Both are properly described as wants, but the parent's true want is not going to be unfulfilled.

Let's use your analogy of a parent and child.

Let's say that a father tells his son, "Son, if you do everything your mother tells you to this week, I will take you to the toy store, without fail, and buy you whatever toy you want.

So, the son goes through the week, doing everything his mother says, and at the end of the week, his father says, "Alright, let's get in the car, we're going to the toy store."

But on the way there, the boy is being lound and obnoxious, happy that he's going to get a new toy. His mother tells him to settle down, but he does not.

The father then says, that's it, we're turning around, and going home. But the boy says, "But you said you were going to take me, 'without fail' even.

But the father says, "No, it is on you that we are not going to the toy store, because you did not obey your mother when she told you to settle down. I cannot and will not reward bad behavior.

So, AMR, did the Father fully intend to take his son to the store? Or was he just bluffing, or making an idle threat?

Can the father not say that because there was a change in the circumstance, "I will not do that which I said I would and fully intended and planned to do"?

Similarly, God wants in the prescriptive sense. He commands this or that, the prescriptions for proper living. These commands are regularly disobeyed. But God also wants in the decretive sense. He decrees this or that. That so decreed is never not unfulfilled, else God is not God. Hence, we can think of God's will in several senses as seen in Scripture. There is the will of desire, or the will of decree. It is not that God is double-minded, like us finite creatures, only that we need to understand how God's will is spoken of within Scripture.

See above.
 

beloved57

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The Bible which I believe is God's word, says everything that I need to say.

The Bible says that you are a perverter of his word. There is not one scripture in the whole Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

God's word condemns Calvinism and all of the other "isms" that are anti-Gospel. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. You cannot believe that. Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9.

You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost, depriving Christ death and its saving power.
 

JudgeRightly

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You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost, depriving Christ death and its saving power.

Can you force someone to put a parachute on after they've jumped out the back of an airplane to commit suicide?
 

Robert Pate

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Can you force someone to put a parachute on after they've jumped out the back of an airplane to commit suicide?

I have heard it said that Christians are standing in the middle of the broadway that leads to hell and are trying to pull some out before they go to hell.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Rev. Enyart Wannabe Epic Fail

Rev. Enyart Wannabe Epic Fail

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:3-4&version=NKJV

So are you calling Paul (if not God Himself, as all scripture is God-breathed) a liar?
You simply ignored my response wherein I discussed the proper method of interpreting these sort of passages.
Try to avoid parroting the open theist nonsense...

Which ones? Quantitative? or Qualitative?
A) Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, impassable, immutable (all quantitative)
OR
B) Living, Loving, Good, Personal, Relational (all qualitative)

(Here's a hint: One of those options was only taught by Plato)
I have already had these discussions about all that you are trying to prove, for example,

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1540220&viewfull=1#post1540220

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1532973&viewfull=1#post1532973

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1539895&viewfull=1#post1539895

Read that entire thread while you are at it since all your arguments are answered therein.

It appears you just needed my response to launch into a protracted post gleaned from Enyart's debate posts. You really do not want, nor are competent to have this discussion.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Robert Pate's Double-Mindedness

Robert Pate's Double-Mindedness

1. To recap, you accused another of putting words into your mouth, being a mind-reader.
2. You were challenged to examine your hundreds of threads where you do the very same thing you complain to another about.
3. Rather than respond to the direct issue, you move on with distractions hoping the actual issue is forgotten.

Just once, why not just actually answer the charges laid at your feet? All this hopscotch you are doing only draws more attention to your unwillingness to accept correction.

The Bible which I believe is God's word, says everything that I need to say.

The Bible says that you are a perverter of his word. There is not one scripture in the whole Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

God's word condemns Calvinism and all of the other "isms" that are anti-Gospel. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. You cannot believe that. Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9.

I see you are still unwilling to be corrected, Robert.

AMR
 
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