Romans 9:21 God is Sovereign No Free Will

[Nanja]

JR


Absolutely false and is the very careless thinking that Paul contemplates as a result of his doctrine here Rom 9:18-21

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So sir you repliest against God !

Now God determined the evil choices men would make in putting Christ to death, they had no choice but to make those choices, and God still held them accountable for the wicked choices Acts 2:23


Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Again Acts 4:27-28

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together[by Gods counsel],

For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And they are still accountable !

Exactly Brother, the God-Glorifying Truth is that the creatures of time are simply reacting to God's Eternal Purpose Eph. 3:11 which was formed from everlasting.

Therefore, everything beginning with Adam and Eve and the serpent in the garden up to this day: Everything done by all human beings, whether good or evil,

has only been that done, which God's Hand and Counsel determined before to be done!


Jer. 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

 

[Lon]

Yes, but... AGAIN... this does NOT mean that God controls every single action of every single person.

I'd suggest 'sustain' doesn't mean control either, it does mean an incredible sovereignty.

Lon... it's about bearing fruit... and bringing forth fruit... I'm sure that you know what that means... don't you?

True, else it'd be a verse that would apply to nonbelievers as well. I'm just saying that there is a true (accurate) sense that we cannot draw even a breath without God.

Again, it's NOT about God controlling every single human action.

Perhaps 'terms' are the important thing in a discussion like this, no? :think: I agree with you on most of this but am also trying to include meaning for others in the conversation. I'm not sure where Lowly One is on all this and want to ensure he gets a well-rounded discussion (thank you for your participation).

:thumb:

In Him

 

[Right Divider]

I'd suggest 'sustain' doesn't mean control either, it does mean an incredible sovereignty.

Sovereignty is about authority and not control.

So we agree that God that God does not control every single action of every single person.

True, else it'd be a verse that would apply to nonbelievers as well. I'm just saying that there is a true (accurate) sense that we cannot draw even a breath without God.

Again... this does not lead to the conclusion that God controls every single action of every single person.

Perhaps 'terms' are the important thing in a discussion like this, no? :think: I agree with you on most of this but am also trying to include meaning for others in the conversation. I'm not sure where Lowly One is on all this and want to ensure he gets a well-rounded discussion (thank you for your participation).

Thanks, you too.

P.S. There are Calvinists here on TOL that think that God forces people to sin and then holds them accountable for that sin.

 

[genuineoriginal]

God controls every detail of every single thing. The world is nothing but puppets and a movie as the verse says all things according to Gods pleasure.

Job 1:8-11 King James Version 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. ​

Most people who read these verses assume that God is praising Job and Satan is attempting to claim that Job is only honoring God for selfish reasons and that Job would use his free will to reject God if God allowed Job to suffer for a while.

Some idiots read these verses and assume that God is having a jolly time forcing Job to be good, forcing Satan to accuse Job, and then forcing Satan to bring needless calamities upon Job since those idiots think Job doesn't have any choice in how he responds.

 

[Lon]

Sovereignty is about authority and not control.

So we agree that God does not control every single action of every single person.

Yes but even 'control' needs discussion. He does order our lives. What do we often mean by control? How much (I really do think we have terms that may and often do mean something else, to another person). God does have any control, He wishes to exert, over our lives. Does He want sin? :nono: So I have to agree and think we also have to agree, while making sure everyone is on page with proper grasps of terms. James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

Such carries an important correction and temperance to our freewill, that we not over-assert it against the sovereignty of God. In this sense, Sovereignty does mean He 'can' exercise complete and utter control over anything in our lives at any given time (I know you agree on this point). I think it important, that a Calvinist recognizes that God doesn't 'control' sin in our lives, persay. He rather manages it because of love (Open Theists used to say this to me and I rather didn't like the wording so had to really go through the implications of what it did and didn't mean, again, definitions and conveyance importance). He told us the analogy of the wheat and tares to give us a clue as to why He doesn't just 'control' it all right away or allow angels to carry out His order: It potentially or will harm wheat. He is unwilling that ANY should perish, thus we have to explain this without God being 1) causal nor 2) aloof.

Again... this does not lead to the conclusion that God controls every single action of every single person.

Well, agreed, but it does mean 'can' so I think that is often why this is argued. The more I've discussed this, the less I think there is a need to argue because specifically, I'm seeing in the other person a desire to keep some truth of God guarded in their respective theology. I'm learning to listen more and rather than always seeing a wolf, seeing rather a disagreement that needs an appreciation. I think more often than not, its a brother/sister on the other side and I need to be more careful and gracious in a good many of these conversations.

Thanks, you too.

P.S. There are Calvinists here on TOL that think that God forces people to sin and then holds them accountable for that sin.

Yes, I think they are equating 'sovereignty' and 'power' etc. with 'complete control.' All of us who love our God and Savior 'can' say God has complete control, but we don't all mean the same thing when we say it. I agree with you nothing is 'out of His control' (like a Master Chess player perhaps), but we also agree that we have a will.

A clarification and qualifier for this thread would be "No freewill" without qualifiers. We certainly have a will that is culpable. No court will take "the devil made me do it!" for a defense.

 

[beloved57]

Nanja

Exactly Brother, the God-Glorifying Truth is that the creatures of time are simply reacting to God's Eternal Purpose Eph. 3:11 which was formed from everlasting.

Very well stated Sister!

Therefore, everything beginning with Adam and Eve and the serpent in the garden up to this day: Everything done by all human beings, whether good or evil,

has only been that done, which God's Hand and Counsel determined before to be done!


Jer. 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

No doubt about it May we bow in adoration for such Greatness!

 

[Nanja]

Nanja


Very well stated Sister!




No doubt about it May we bow in adoration for such Greatness!

Thank You Brother; and bowing indeed in adoration of the Greatness of Our God and Father !

 

[Clete]

Beloved, when you say people make choices, the ones God determines they make. Isn’t that same thing as 100% puppet like I’m saying? If God determines your choices then they aren’t choices.

Guys I really wish we had a mathematician in here very smart cause I know he could prove this somehow. If you guys think think think, there is no part choice or “over” but not control for the things God says He does without 100% manipulation. Just one proclamation He makes in Romans 13:1 alone proves that God controls every detail on earth or else again mans free will would get in the way. And every man is created to sin some degree or another w/o their choice but because they do sin they are still blamed. He is not the author of sin because He somehow controls the evil ones and He puts the blame on them. He had to want sin because the purposes of the age with messiah would not be possible and would be pointless without it. How could all the purposes of Jesus happen without sin? Like Adam and Eve had to sin as God planned or else there would be no need of the savior. And he says everything that happens does so as he planned and according to his will and pleasure. God in control of the names of the patriarchs. Look at what together their name meanings in Hebrew say.

Name	Meaning of Name
Adam	Man
Seth	appointed
Enosh	mortal
Kenan	sorrow
Mahalalel	the blessed God
Jared	shall come down
Enoch	teaching
Methuselah	His death shall bring
Lamech	the despairing
Noah	rest, comfort

Read this closely it proves God controls who is saved and not saved. Otherwise why would this discussion take place where men are objecting and displeased??
Romans 9
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

What is Paul saying these men will object to and raise concern to God about? He says men will say to God “how can you fault us if you yourself made us a hardened vessel pot of wrath or dishonor that can’t be saved? And also how can you fault us when we can’t resist your will of us being the way you made us (resisting by wanting to repent for example)? He then says, “But who are you as human men to talk back or object to God? Can what is created say to it’s creator why did you make me like this? Does the creator not have the right to make his creations for honor(saved) or dishonor(unsaved) if He wants to?

Then to make it more painful He says that the whole purpose of God creating all the people who will be condemned is to show just how blessed and special the people are that God chose to save by His grace.

What in the world do you image that the word "justice" means?

 

[Right Divider]

Yes but even 'control' needs discussion. He does order our lives. What do we often mean by control? How much (I really do think we have terms that may and often do mean something else, to another person). God does have any control, He wishes to exert, over our lives. Does He want sin? :nono: So I have to agree and think we also have to agree, while making sure everyone is on page with proper grasps of terms. James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

I still think that you're getting off on a side road. Does God control EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION or does He NOT? It's a really simple question.

Such carries an important correction and temperance to our freewill, that we not over-assert it against the sovereignty of God. In this sense, Sovereignty does mean He 'can' exercise complete and utter control over anything in our lives at any given time (I know you agree on this point). I think it important, that a Calvinist recognizes that God doesn't 'control' sin in our lives, persay. He rather manages it because of love (Open Theists used to say this to me and I rather didn't like the wording so had to really go through the implications of what it did and didn't mean, again, definitions and conveyance importance). He told us the analogy of the wheat and tares to give us a clue as to why He doesn't just 'control' it all right away or allow angels to carry out His order: It potentially or will harm wheat. He is unwilling that ANY should perish, thus we have to explain this without God being 1) causal nor 2) aloof.

There are a least two Calvinists here that think that God controls EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION, including causing people to sin. They also think that God somehow holds people accountable for actions over which they had NO CONTROL. They blaspheme the Lord as someone that will punish people unjustly.

Well, agreed, but it does mean 'can' so I think that is often why this is argued. The more I've discussed this, the less I think there is a need to argue because specifically, I'm seeing in the other person a desire to keep some truth of God guarded in their respective theology. I'm learning to listen more and rather than always seeing a wolf, seeing rather a disagreement that needs an appreciation. I think more often than not, its a brother/sister on the other side and I need to be more careful and gracious in a good many of these conversations.

So... back to the question.... Does God control EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION or does He NOT?

Yes, I think they are equating 'sovereignty' and 'power' etc. with 'complete control.' All of us who love our God and Savior 'can' say God has complete control, but we don't all mean the same thing when we say it. I agree with you nothing is 'out of His control' (like a Master Chess player perhaps), but we also agree that we have a will.

Ok, you again you seem to be agreeing that God does NOT control every single human action.

A clarification and qualifier for this thread would be "No freewill" without qualifiers. We certainly have a will that is culpable. No court will take "the devil made me do it!" for a defense.

But our resident Calvinists believe that some people are accountable to God for actions that they have NO CONTROL over.

 

[ttruscott]

You two constantly read your ideas into the scripture instead of understanding what the scripture actually says.

Everyone does this... No one is free from their mind set, their set of assumptions, methods, or notions, not even you.

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

 

[Lon]

I still think that you're getting off on a side road. Does God control EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION or does He NOT? It's a really simple question.

I don't think so, and follow with me a short paragraph:
It is, and the answer is that nothing is 'out' of His control. He isn't just a manager of a plant, for instance. He is God very God. "Instead we ought to say 'if the Lord wills'" is an important verse. "Who can resist His will?" in Romans 9. In short, I think the side roads and discussion 'qualify' control. Air traffic control does control planes, but it takes pilots. We want to know instead, in what way they 'control' planes then. God does control and has complete control of us. It does not mean it is exercised as if He is the pilot. It means He guides and gives instructions.

Like you, I very much believe scripture that God is good, and doesn't tempt anyone, and is desirous that all men come to Him through Christ. Like you, I believe in a will that is able to do other than God asks/demands. Such necessarily means that 'control' is loose in the sense that air traffic is control in a similar sense. It is control but, with you, not over every single action else there is no need for further instructions like our Bible. Maybe a better word for 'control.' God has the option to take over a plane and completely negate pilots that He does not exercise, thus He 'has' or 'has the option' of complete control which does make Him in 'complete' control like the master chess player analogy. I still think, on TOL, for many years, we were always arguing over semantics rather than over the full theological content. I think, all along, we had to agree on every scripture we held to, we just were (likely) talking past each other.

So... back to the question.... Does God control EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION or does He NOT?

No. Not like you and conversely a double-pred Calvinist means. No.

Ok, you again you seem to be agreeing that God does NOT control every single human action.

Correct.

But our resident Calvinists believe that some people are accountable to God for actions that they have NO CONTROL over.

Right, we assumed control of even more than we were given at the Fall. It is because we are inept, unable, and negligent, that we need a Savior.
It still is difficult with semantics: Is it more accurate to say "God took control to save us" or "God exercised His control to save us"? In such, did He 'have' control already as God and Sovereign, or did He 'take' up a control that we alternately had and took? I 'think' answering these and qualifying the terms has at least everybody following, if not all yet in agreement on what was going on in us and God for the pertinent discussion of our Salvation and our walk with our Savior (among a few other important notes).

There are a least two Calvinists here that think that God controls EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ACTION, including causing people to sin. They also think that God somehow holds people accountable for actions over which they had NO CONTROL. They blaspheme the Lord as someone that will punish people unjustly.

You are correct and I think they take 'control' and 'within His complete control' to mean pilots never land a plane. It is where the 'robot' accusation against Calvinists has always come in.
This is why I've tried to spend time discussion terms and the implications of them. I'm fairly sure that our definition of words, held differently in our heads within scripture contexts, is often culprit. Granted some will believe God really is the author of sin. That is a definition of 'control' that most of us cannot embrace. There is every sense of autonomy of some sort given in our Imago Deo. At the beginning, I'd always said that 'Free" will was not given at creation, not in the sense that it led to sin, but having talked over this on TOL over the years, there is indeed a sense that we are 'like' God in our actions at the beginning of Creation such that there is a sense of 'autonomy' like naming the animals and instructions to continue.
These two or more Calvinists need to read the rest of God's word and wrestle over that, as I did. There is every indication in Genesis that man was autonomous (qualified as is "control" in these discussions) to carry out instructions. I guess a robot could do the same, but in that sense, a robot also works autonomously. My computer works autonomously when I'm not there, doing updates, running virus checkers, posting reminders, etc. It cannot have a relationship with me, but Siri, Google, Cortana, and Alexa try. We obviously aren't as good as God at making independent thinking entities. I cannot even make my dog do tricks when he doesn't want to do so. Calvinists need to see that God has made man in some senses, 'free.' Sin caused a further gap in that autonomy and that was/is always the part I want to be careful about when discussing and qualifying being self-aware somewhat autonomous beings. I do think we (at least me anyway) will always need to have a paragraph when discussing the "free" of freewill because the term alone, until everyone is on page and agrees and this is all talked out and remembered, will always be vague for discussion point, as is 'robot' and 'control.'

Thanks for the discussion. Even if nobody listens, I do think the content 'can' draw denominations together in mutual understandings and at the very least, have a good grasp on what is needed for discussion. I imagine councils of old needing to go this way and discuss theology and ensure a God-honoring statement between members. In Him -Lon

 

[Lowly one]

Guys please don’t look at each other as enemies. The best thing about real Christians is the love one another. My own family treats me like I’m their enemy at my most vulnerable cause they have no heart it’s hard.

Clete and Right Divider

I do not care about terms like Calvin I came to this truth in the most painful way not knowing about that denomination.
i do not talk about this stuff with pleasure at all actually really opposite it’s the most painful thing in the world to realize unless God chooses you that u have no hope. That even if you want God and try to repent it doesn’t matter. If you have the right doctrine and understanding it does not matter. I ran after Gid more than anyone I know. It says it doesn’t matter of mans will, his desire, effort or works to be born again. Only by God choosing can a person be born again. So if those things are taken out then those are the only things a man can do to choose God faith included and it says they don’t matter. The people I seen that were chosen were different. They all experienced Jesus and Holy Spirit supernaturally at least once and they were delivered from demons sickness and sin set total free like when apostles in bible. They were given certainty by that encounter with God and Holy Spirit sealed them as Gods child. I can tell you so many stories. Many were not even seeking or wanting God. God pursued them supernaturally in ways the person knew it was God. All the chosen people I know do not even realize that Gid cobtrols everything. I believe God keeps it hidden like blinding the eyes of the Jews cause if people knew they were controlled just wouldn’t be the same.

Justice i believe is what you believe it to be. To God it doesn’t matter though.

Romans 9 is about both individuals and Israel at the same time. Romans 9 really is the clearest way to see this as Beloved posted. There are two instances in Rom 9 that men are objecting and protesting to God about an issue they felt is unjust. What is it they are objecting to??

Also when you read Daniel 4:17 and 35 for God to control every nation and authority since time is impossible unless Gid controlled everyone like puppets. It says all the people of the world besides the elect are nothing to God. I never was told about that verse. It says Gid puts over each nation the basest of men I looked up means evil corrupt. So Gid put Hitler over Germany and Stalin abd every leader ever. He controlled it and who. How many Christians know that abd read those verses and think about the implications? The truth is there but it’s hard to find and put together cause they focus on all the positive ones. But all the storyline as if peiple were choosing or told to is still people being controlled. It’s like an author writing a book with lots of storyline abd characters choosing stuff but the author is controlling every choice and thought. I was taught God loved everyone all my life and was open and never forsake and merciful. That God have me hope and I still was scared of Him I wanted to be made holy cause I had so much bad intrusive thoughts and feelings all the time toxic ones. I wanted to follow Jesus but I needed empowered and delivered cause I was trying so hard. Life has been nothing but pain and a nightmare. I looked to God as my only hope and the greatest hope.

 

[oatmeal]

Guys I am not Calvinist or any denom. We don’t allow ourselves to consider that God controls everything. One man I seen said nothing man hates more than if God is 100% sovereign.Here is commentary straight from my Bible app from men explaining way smarter than me. There are many and they all see the same thing if people read the Bible for what it says.

Commentary for Romans 9:21 about God himself choosing as the potter creator to make vessels of honor(saved person) and dishonor(hardened condemned person) as He wants.

COMMENTARY EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHAT I TRY TO SAY

with respect to the vessels of honour, whom he appoints for his glory, he determines to create them; to suffer them to fall into sin, whereby they become polluted and guilty; to raise and recover them, by the obedience, sufferings, and death of his Son; to regenerate, renew, and sanctify them, by his Spirit and grace, and to bring them to eternal happiness; and hereby compass the aforesaid end, his own glory, the glorifying of his grace and mercy, in a way consistent with justice and holiness: with respect to the vessels of dishonour, whom he also appoints for the glorifying of himself, he determines to create them out of the same lump; to suffer them to fall into sin; to leave them in their sins, in the pollution and guilt of them, and to condemn them for them; and hereby gain his ultimate end, his own glory, glorifying the perfections of his power, justice, and holiness, without the least blemish to his goodness and mercy: now if a potter has power, for his own advantage and secular interest, to make out of the same clay what vessels he pleases; much more has God a power, out of the same mass and lump of creatureship, to appoint creatures he determines to make to his own glory;
2nd commentary
The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Would not men allow the infinite God the same sovereign right to manage the affairs of the creation, as the potter exercises in disposing of his clay, when of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a dishonorable use? God could do no wrong, however it might appear to men. God will make it appear that he hates sin. Also, he formed vessels filled with mercy. Sanctification of the soul for glory is Gods work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called and chosen. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience before he brings utter destruction upon them. As to all who love and fear God, HOWEVER SUCH TRUTHS APPEAR BEYOND THEIR REASON TO FATHOM, yet they should keep silence before him. we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace

How does God decide who is right and who's wrong who's living according to God's word and who's rejecting God's word

​​​​​​By the standard of his own word

Is by the standard of his word that he determines who is righteous and who is not

 

[Clete]

Guys please don’t look at each other as enemies. The best thing about real Christians is the love one another. My own family treats me like I’m their enemy at my most vulnerable cause they have no heart it’s hard.

Clete and Right Divider

I do not care about terms like Calvin I came to this truth in the most painful way not knowing about that denomination.

The way you came to it is irrelevant. The fact is, what you are advocating has a name. It's called Calvinism and that's what I am going to call it whether you like it or not.

i do not talk about this stuff with pleasure at all actually really opposite it’s the most painful thing in the world to realize unless God chooses you that u have no hope.

That pain you are feeling (if you actually feel it) is your conscience telling you that what you're preaching is that God is unjust. You have been designed by your Creator to know justice intuitively and you are in the process of searing your conscience so as to forget that if God is not just He isn't God at all.

That even if you want God and try to repent it doesn’t matter. If you have the right doctrine and understanding it does not matter. I ran after God more than anyone I know. It says it doesn’t matter of mans will, his desire, effort or works to be born again. Only by God choosing can a person be born again. So if those things are taken out then those are the only things a man can do to choose God faith included and it says they don’t matter. The people I seen that were chosen were different. They all experienced Jesus and Holy Spirit supernaturally at least once and they were delivered from demons sickness and sin set total free like when apostles in bible. They were given certainty by that encounter with God and Holy Spirit sealed them as Gods child. I can tell you so many stories. Many were not even seeking or wanting God. God pursued them supernaturally in ways the person knew it was God. All the chosen people I know do not even realize that God controls everything. I believe God keeps it hidden like blinding the eyes of the Jews cause if people knew they were controlled just wouldn’t be the same.

The only thing lying here is you and the fools who have convinced you of things that absolutely did not happen.

If someone tells you that they've been healed of some sickness, make them prove it. They won't do it. They won't even try to do it. What will happen is that you will be removed for your "lack of faith". You've been lied too. You've been conned and are perpetuating it here yourself.

Justice i believe is what you believe it to be. To God it doesn’t matter though.

So I was wrong a moment ago. You are not in the process of searing your conscience, it has been fulled cooked through and is well done. This sentence is blasphemy! If you think any doctrine that leads people to blatant blasphemy is the truth then I cannot help you except to tell you that you are not saved, you have not found the truth, the people surrounding you are fools and so are you. Repent! You will be facing a just God on judgment day!

Romans 9 is about both individuals and Israel at the same time.

So says you. You are wrong. All that is required is to read the chapter without your doctrine clouding your judgment. It isn't hard to understand. Just simply read it.

Romans 9 really is the clearest way to see this as Beloved posted.

Beloved is a blasphemer and doesn't know good doctrine from his exit hole.

There are two instances in Rom 9 that men are objecting and protesting to God about an issue they felt is unjust. What is it they are objecting to??

They are objecting to God's absolute right to choose which nation(s) He will choose to work with or against. He can make such decisions justly because no nation is any better than any other. Israel wasn't chosen because they were more righteous than the Hittites or the Egyptians or the Syrians or anyone else. Israel, on the whole, was just as evil as any other nation of people but because of the faithfulness of a single man, Abraham, God chose to work through his seed (i.e. Israel) to bring about His plan to provide a way of salvation for the entire world. That plan has been accomplished up through the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, and it would have continued on through the rest of Israel's prophecied program including the return of Christ shortly after His ascension, Him being crowned King of Israel where He would have not only ruled Israel but the entire world for a thousand years with justice an iron fist of justice for all. Instead, Israel chose to reject their Messiah and so, because Israel hated their King, God refused to give them their kingdom and turned instead to the Gentiles as per the warning He gave to Israel through the prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 18.

That is Romans 9 in a nutshell.

Also when you read Daniel 4:17 and 35 for God to control every nation and authority since time is impossible unless Gid controlled everyone like puppets.

First of all, use a spell checker for crying out loud! Your posts repeatedly misspell even the word "God" for goodness sake! A typo here and there is one thing, everyone does that but come on already. I've been correcting your spelling as I go here but I'm done with doing that.

And your conception of God ought to be spelled with a small g given how weak you believe him to be. Plus you really need to learn how to think more clearly. Even if your premise were true, your conclusion wouldn't follow.

If God wanted to control every nation, which He doesn't, then while He could choose to do so by controlling everyone like puppets, He certainly wouldn't have to do it that way. God is very much more wise and powerful than you give Him credit for. But dropping the standard of his quantitative attributes is a natural consequence of dropping the standard of His qualitative attributes. In other words, when you forget that God is personal, relational, rational, loving, righteous and just, then forgetting that He is infinitely wise and powerful is easy.

It says all the people of the world besides the elect are nothing to God. I never was told about that verse. It says Gid puts over each nation the basest of men I looked up means evil corrupt. So Gid put Hitler over Germany and Stalin abd every leader ever. He controlled it and who. How many Christians know that abd read those verses and think about the implications? The truth is there but it’s hard to find and put together cause they focus on all the positive ones. But all the storyline as if peiple were choosing or told to is still people being controlled. It’s like an author writing a book with lots of storyline abd characters choosing stuff but the author is controlling every choice and thought. I was taught God loved everyone all my life and was open and never forsake and merciful. That God have me hope and I still was scared of Him I wanted to be made holy cause I had so much bad intrusive thoughts and feelings all the time toxic ones. I wanted to follow Jesus but I needed empowered and delivered cause I was trying so hard. Life has been nothing but pain and a nightmare. I looked to God as my only hope and the greatest hope.

I can't take your blasphemy any longer.

Believe what you want. Just do me a favor and stop calling yourself a Christian. What you believe has nothing to do with the true God or His word. You might as well just go make up a religion like L. Ron Hubbard did in the 50's.

Clete

 

[marke]

Does not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour?

The Potter knows what He is doing. If clay becomes marred in His hand it is not His fault, but the clay's. If a lump of clay refuses to be molded into a good vessel the Potter simply makes it into a vessel to dishonor.

 

[oatmeal]

Sovereignty is about AUTHORITY and not CONTROL.

A king is sovereign in his own land but he does NOT control every citizen.

To claim that God controls every single action of His created beings is to claim that God is the author of sin. That is blasphemous.

I appreciate your clarity on that.

I've been looking for the right words to make that distinction and you provided them

 

[marke]

Does not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour?

"The objection is founded on ignorance or misapprehension of the relation between God and His sinful creatures; supposing that He is under obligation to extend His grace to all, whereas He is under obligation to none.

Commentary
Man is in ruins: he is fallen; he has no claim on God; all deserve to die; on this mass, where none have any claim, he may bestow life on whom he pleases, he may exercise the right of a sovereign to pardon whom he pleases; or of a potter to mould any part of the useless mass to purposes of utility and beauty."
The lump or vessel of dishonor here denotes the mass of people, sinners, having no claim on God. The potter illustrates God's right over that mass, to dispose of it as seems good in his sight. The doctrine of the passage is, that people have no right to complain if God bestows his blessings where and when he chooses.

Very confused amateur Bible students have been misled to believe God specifically created humans to be burned in hell forever to make Himself look good. That is a slanderous mischaracterization of God, who is not willing that any should perish and who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[ttruscott]

Some idiots read these verses and assume that God is having a jolly time forcing Job to be good, forcing Satan to accuse Job, and then forcing Satan to bring needless calamities upon Job since those idiots think Job doesn't have any choice in how he responds.

In light of the very real possibility of both Satan and Job having chosen rebellion to GOD before they were flung into the earth and Job sown, (not created) into the world, Matt 13:36-39, the scenario could be based upon their sinfulness.

Iow, though their FATES were self chosen by their free will (Satan to perdition and Job to election though later to rebellion), their LIVES in the world could well have been perfectly determined to fulfill GOD's plan for sinners, that is, the redemption and sanctification of the sinful elect by the strict suffering of the discipline, Heb 12:5-11.

The sins of the lives of the sinful elect are predetermined to conform to the sinful choices and desire of each person so they will become self aware and by comparing their desires to GOD's commands, convicted and repentant. This doesn't deny their free will because as soon as they chose to be sinful in HIS sight by a free will decision they lost their free will to the enslaving or addictive power of evil. So HE is not programming their sinful lives against their free will but against their sinful will in which the very best choices are as corrupt as filthy rags.

Though Job's suffering was not in excess for this world, the strange part of the story is GOD's involvement with Satan to be the cause of the suffering Job needed to cause his repentance. Since I believe that Job existed before he was sown into the world, I think that he agreed to be a part of GOD's plan to expose the depths of Satanic evil (which the sinful elect obviously denied) as willing to monster the most holy old man on earth just because he worshipped YHWH and had GOD's respect.

It was a setup from the git go so the world could learn how evil those fully leavened by evil will become supporting the absolute necessity of their banishment to the outer darkness once the postponement of the judgement is past.

But the crux of predetermination must be that the choices determined for us must be choices we were ready to make in our sinfulness, or less, but not including anything outside of our range of desires. Our lives are designed to be a mirror to our hidden desires so that we can see our sinfulness and become ashamed.

 

[marke]

Amen Brother! The choices a person makes have already been determined by God to be made, according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11;

and yes, God still holds him accountable even though he could not have done otherwise than what God's counsel determined.

Yet many in false religion have the utmost contempt and irreverence for God, which stems from the pride of their own freewill.


Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

God does not make sinners' choices for them. That idea is not taught in the Bible.