Nanja
Well-known member
Praising Him Indeed !
Romans 9:21 God is Sovereign No Free Will
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Praising Him Indeed !
Lon
Well-known member
I don’t want to be right oh I wish it was different. Guys it’s so bad for most of us in the worldbecause I know you believe different but God took people to eternity above and below. I don’t want to be an evil spirit. I wanted to be His. He showed people 98% of world don’t make it. He showed that 9 of 10 Christians don’t. I’m just saying what he showed multiple people. Guys it’s so different then what everyone thinks. If everyone knew the real truth. This is why it’s so hard cause everything is by faith. God does things like in the Bible now but not where everyone sees it all the time.
Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
1) I'm at least sympathetic toward Calvinism, if not a Calvinist (doesn't matter at the moment).
2) Even John Calvin believed in some sense of freewill
3) I agree with Right Divider that "Sovereignty" means 'over' and not necessarily control BUT Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 to me, are clear that God is in Control of everything.
Does it mean He desired sin? No. Does it mean it could happen without His sustaining power? :nono:
Sooo.... Does it make Him 'author' of it? No. It makes it rather a malady within Him sustaining the universe. He sustains it still, Not because He desires sin, but because He desires salvation, thus, I think, there is a tightrope walk between a God who literally sustains everything, every breath, every molecule via the above scriptures, and a world where an enemy planted tares. To me, the wheat and the tares is not a parable as much as an analogy of our literal condition. Respectfully and prayerfully, -Lon
Beloved, when you say people make choices, the ones God determines they make. Isn’t that same thing as 100% puppet like I’m saying? If God determines your choices then they aren’t choices.
Guys I really wish we had a mathematician in here very smart cause I know he could prove this somehow. If you guys think think think, there is no part choice or “over” but not control for the things God says He does without 100% manipulation. Just one proclamation He makes in Romans 13:1 alone proves that God controls every detail on earth or else again mans free will would get in the way. And every man is created to sin some degree or another w/o their choice but because they do sin they are still blamed. He is not the author of sin because He somehow controls the evil ones and He puts the blame on them. He had to want sin because the purposes of the age with messiah would not be possible and would be pointless without it. How could all the purposes of Jesus happen without sin? Like Adam and Eve had to sin as God planned or else there would be no need of the savior. And he says everything that happens does so as he planned and according to his will and pleasure. God in control of the names of the patriarchs. Look at what together their name meanings in Hebrew say.
Read this closely it proves God controls who is saved and not saved. Otherwise why would this discussion take place where men are objecting and displeased??
Romans 9
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”
What is Paul saying these men will object to and raise concern to God about? He says men will say to God “how can you fault us if you yourself made us a hardened vessel pot of wrath or dishonor that can’t be saved? And also how can you fault us when we can’t resist your will of us being the way you made us (resisting by wanting to repent for example)? He then says, “But who are you as human men to talk back or object to God? Can what is created say to it’s creator why did you make me like this? Does the creator not have the right to make his creations for honor(saved) or dishonor(unsaved) if He wants to?
Then to make it more painful He says that the whole purpose of God creating all the people who will be condemned is to show just how blessed and special the people are that God chose to save by His grace.
Guys I really wish we had a mathematician in here very smart cause I know he could prove this somehow. If you guys think think think, there is no part choice or “over” but not control for the things God says He does without 100% manipulation. Just one proclamation He makes in Romans 13:1 alone proves that God controls every detail on earth or else again mans free will would get in the way. And every man is created to sin some degree or another w/o their choice but because they do sin they are still blamed. He is not the author of sin because He somehow controls the evil ones and He puts the blame on them. He had to want sin because the purposes of the age with messiah would not be possible and would be pointless without it. How could all the purposes of Jesus happen without sin? Like Adam and Eve had to sin as God planned or else there would be no need of the savior. And he says everything that happens does so as he planned and according to his will and pleasure. God in control of the names of the patriarchs. Look at what together their name meanings in Hebrew say.
| Name | Meaning of Name |
| Adam | Man |
| Seth | appointed |
| Enosh | mortal |
| Kenan | sorrow |
| Mahalalel | the blessed God |
| Jared | shall come down |
| Enoch | teaching |
| Methuselah | His death shall bring |
| Lamech | the despairing |
| Noah | rest, comfort |
Read this closely it proves God controls who is saved and not saved. Otherwise why would this discussion take place where men are objecting and displeased??
Romans 9
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”
What is Paul saying these men will object to and raise concern to God about? He says men will say to God “how can you fault us if you yourself made us a hardened vessel pot of wrath or dishonor that can’t be saved? And also how can you fault us when we can’t resist your will of us being the way you made us (resisting by wanting to repent for example)? He then says, “But who are you as human men to talk back or object to God? Can what is created say to it’s creator why did you make me like this? Does the creator not have the right to make his creations for honor(saved) or dishonor(unsaved) if He wants to?
Then to make it more painful He says that the whole purpose of God creating all the people who will be condemned is to show just how blessed and special the people are that God chose to save by His grace.
Your disagreement doesn't change the fact that they are no longer choices if God infallibly knew them beforehand.
Nanja
Well-known member
Amen Brother! The choices a person makes have already been determined by God to be made, according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11;
and yes, God still holds him accountable even though he could not have done otherwise than what God's counsel determined.
Yet many in false religion have the utmost contempt and irreverence for God, which stems from the pride of their own freewill.
Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
It is completely baffling to me how the chapter of the New Testament that is the strongest argument there is AGAINST the doctrine of predestination or that "God controls everything" as you put it, is somehow twisted into its opposite and that the twisted version is taken so seriously that people are convinced to the point that they openly state and use as supplemental arguments that we should praise God for being unjust, as the above post just did, although it obviously wasn't stated it in those terms.
Some years ago, back when people on this website actually had debates where both sides responded to the arguments made by the other, I had a one on one debate on this exact topic against a poster named "Mr. Coffee" where I clearly established that Romans 9 doesn't have anything to do with the doctrine of predestination. On the contrary, Paul is simply applying the principle set down by God in Jeremiah 18 (the origin of the potter and the clay story) to the nation of Israel. Here's the full text of my opening argument in that debate....
I thought I'd start by simply posting my take on the chapter. I thought to take it verse by verse but then I realized that would be entirely too lengthy and not really necessary, especially for the opening post so I decided just to clearly communicate the way I think the text should be taken without going into that much meticulous detail.
Before I do that though let me say first that I think that the Bible interprets itself and must be taken as a whole but that I also believe that individual passages of Scripture must stand on their own without being logically incoherent. In other words, we are able to determine what a passage of Scripture is saying based solely on the context of the passage itself. We do not need a theological system in place before it is possible to figure out what a section of Scripture is saying. Now, there could be, I suppose, exceptions to this general rule but Romans chapter 9 is certainly not one of them. I'm saying this at the outset because I want to draw attention to the fact that I do not draw upon any theology to interpret this chapter but only upon other Bible passages which the text of Romans 9 makes reference too, all of which couldn't be any clearer and easy to understand than they are. I also bring this up now because I think that this will become important as the conversation goes on because I do not think that the Calvinist take on this chapter makes any logical sense whatsoever. Paul would have to be nearly schizophrenic to write what Calvinists generally say that he wrote in this passage. Perhaps Mr. Coffee will surprise me.
Now, with that in mind let's get to it...
The ninth chapter of Romans is speaking about the cutting off of Israel. It is quite clear that Paul is making a case that God cut off Israel and turned instead to the gentiles, and that God is justified in having done so. It will become equally clear that this is all that the chapter is about, and that it has nothing to do with predestination at all.
It helps to see it if one looks at the introduction and summation of the chapter. In the first few verses it is clear that Paul is speaking of Israel and that he is upset by their condition of unbelief...
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Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my *countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
And then in the last few verses Paul sums up the point of what he's just been saying in the previous several verses...
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Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Now, that by itself is probably enough to make it clear what Paul is talking about but what really nails it down is his reference in the body of the chapter to a couple of Old Testament passages, those being Jacob and Esau and then the Potter and the clay story.
It's always a good idea to read any Old Testament passage that is quoted or made reference to in the New Testament, in order to maintain the context of what's being said. (Remember the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible" thing.) So let's take a look at them so that we can be on the same page that Paul was on when he made these references. Doing so will undoubtedly shed additional light on the point he was making.
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Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
This is a direct quote from Malachi 1:2-3 but even the Malachi passage is not referencing the two boys themselves but the nations which came from them. I won't bother quoting it here but even a surface reading of Malachi 1 will confirm that it is talking about a nation not a person.
Likewise, Paul is talking also about a nation. We can tell this for certain because of what is quoted just before in verse 12...
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Romans 9:12 "it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.""
This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25 where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...
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Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."
Additionally, even if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations we could still know for certain that it is anyway because Esau (the older) never served Jacob (the younger). That did not happen, ever!
This passage is very clearly talking about nations and about how God deals with nations not about individuals or how God deals with individuals and Paul by referencing this material was making the exact same point. That's the reason why he referenced it.
Now let's move on to the Potter and the clay story. It is on the same topic and is found in Jeremiah chapter 18...
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Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Okay, that couldn't be any clearer! Jeremiah was making the very point that Paul is making! No wonder Paul referenced this passage, it applies directly to the subject he was dealing with! It IS the subject he was dealing with! Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are making the exact same point; they both use the same analogy for the same reasons. For all intent and purposes Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18 are the exact same chapter! The only difference is that in Romans 9 Paul is saying that the principle described in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out by God upon the nation of Israel.
Romans 9 is not about predestination at all. Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly change the subject back again to Israel. The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only. That issue being God's absolute right to change His mind concerning His blessing of a nation that had done evil in His sight.
It's no more complicated than that. In a nutshell, Paul was simply saying that Israel's promised kingdom wasn't coming because they had rejected the King and Romans 9 is all about how God was justified in having changed His mind about giving them that kingdom. That's all it's about; nothing more, nothing less.
Resting in Him,
Clete
One on One: Romans 9
Right Divider
Body part
Col 1:17 is not about God controlling every single action of His created beings.
It is simply stating His preeminence as the Creator of all things.
John 15:5 is another bad example of what you seem to be trying to prove.
That is not about controlling every single action of every single man/woman. It's about the fact that no man can do good without God.
So don't try to read your bias into the text. Just let it speak for itself.
beloved57
Well-known member
You nailed it Sister !
Your position is self-contradictory and more importantly, it makes God out to be unjust.
If God predetermined what choices a man would make, and the man has no say in what he will do, he therefore IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for such actions, and holding him accountable for such would therefore be unjust.
You literally just said "God still holds a man accountable for things that he has no control over."
That is, by definition, unjust, and you, Nanja, and B57, accuse God of being unjust.
SHAME ON YOU!
The only ones here who have the utmost contempt and irreverence for God here are YOU AND B57, which stem from your adherence to Greek philosophy through Calvinism.
Again, SHAME ON YOU for dishonoring God by calling Him unjust.
Right Divider
Body part
Amen brother!! They are constantly blasphemous!
Nanja
Well-known member
Praising God Brother !
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen and Amen !
beloved57
Well-known member
JR
Absolutely false and is the very careless thinking that Paul contemplates as a result of his doctrine here Rom 9:18-21
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
So sir you repliest against God !
Now God determined the evil choices men would make in putting Christ to death, they had no choice but to make those choices, and God still held them accountable for the wicked choices Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Again Acts 4:27-28
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together[by Gods counsel],
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And they are still accountable !
Absolutely false and is the very careless thinking that Paul contemplates as a result of his doctrine here Rom 9:18-21
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
So sir you repliest against God !
Now God determined the evil choices men would make in putting Christ to death, they had no choice but to make those choices, and God still held them accountable for the wicked choices Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Again Acts 4:27-28
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together[by Gods counsel],
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And they are still accountable !
Right Divider
Body part
Accountable for actions that they had NO control over?
You are as dumb as they come.
Lon
Well-known member
If God is the energy behind all that survives, then there is a sense beyond sovereignty that is important, otherwise our theology has God making then aloof from Creation.
Colossians 1:17 doesn't say that. It says by Him all things 'are held together.' The verbs are important.
Only go as far as the text allows, RD. It doesn't say 'without me you can do nothing that is good.'
Be open to actuals with me, that's all I believe I ever need ask of you. You DO read the scriptures pretty well. Read them with me. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
If God said "Stop breathing my air." We'd be culpable, but unable to comply. Because of His nature, He'd have to provide an alternative for us to be able to comply because every breath would be an infraction we have no control over (I'm agreeing with you). I'm not a double-predestination proponent and believe it makes God the author of sin and death. We know scripture says God is unwilling that any should perish and it is a very hard verse for double-preds to incorporate into their theology (like "stop breathing air). Our theology has to incorporate and account for all revelation of God. John 3:16 says God SO loved the world. Both "So" and "World" have a holistic conveyance.
God's nature is to apply His holiness and character. You and I react, God acts (even in Open Theology). It means He has a consistent, loving, and perfect application for all things: He causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust, Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone and Rock of stumbling. For Pharaoh, there were ten plagues. For some, 1 or 2 would have been enough and they'd ask concerning a God that loves His people that much. If God knows the heart (and He does) He knows how his perfect, holy, consistent actions will affect those who receive it: thus God said His actions would harden Pharaoh's heart. "Hardening" wasn't the desire, rather it was the need. God takes no pleasure, in the death of the wicked.
The rain will cause the unjust to continue to be unjust unless they stop to think where their next breath is drawn (Colossians 1:17) and give thanks. Romans 12:1 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
In Him -Lon
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes they were responsible for evil actions that God determined that they make.
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, but... AGAIN... this does NOT mean that God controls every single action of every single person.
Lon... it's about bearing fruit... and bringing forth fruit... I'm sure that you know what that means... don't you?
Again, it's NOT about God controlling every single human action.
:thumb:
Right Divider
Body part
:kookoo: