Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

[john w]

My "take" is this:

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was the fulfillment of Christ's promise to use the Roman army to completely destroy the temple and the city. Luk 21:20KJV Luk 19:44KJV This was, as Tet has said, a coming (appearance) in judgement (only) but not "unto them that look for him" as mentioned in Hebrews but, rather, unto those who did not look for Him.

Why did you alter the passage?

He will appear to "them that look for him", those of faith, the redeemed, at a different time than when He appeared in judgement upon His enemies in 70 A.D. I do not disagree with the historic church that this will be at the end of time. So, to put it succinctly, believers are to look for His return for them.

"So, to put it succinctly, believers are to look for His return for them."

So, did the "Second Coming" already happen, and the events depicted, in the book, associated with "the second time? Is your view that He will come again, per the above?

I don't see anything significant about the "second time" mentioned in Acts when compared to it being mentioned in Hebrews other than as a historical fact. It is no more or less significant than Gen 22:15KJV

No "type" pictures all of the Lord Jesus Christ-granted. Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Moses,......all "types," portray the Saviour, in some aspect, but not all.

Joseph is portrayed as a type, was also hated by His brethren and given over to death, but later became an exalted ruler and the Saviour of His brethren, the very ones who got rid of Him... Acts 7:13 KJV: Stephen's statement is, “the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren.” Why significant? While the nation Israel had rejected Him, His first coming/advent, Peter, and the gang are now offering His return, per prophecy, to bring in the “Times of refreshing” if Israel repents as a nation...Act 2 KJV ...The context of Stephen's "sermon." The "Jewish leadership," "El the Sanhedrin," knew the prophecies, quite well, and they knew that one day the Messiah/Christ would come to establish the earthly kingdom. But they did not want to believe that this "Jesus" of Nazareth was the Messiah/Christ. Thus, the purpose of Stephen's sermon- They had rejected this Jesus Christ,demanding his death, by crucifixion. They, like the brethren of Joseph, had considered themselves to be rid of Him-forever. But now, the second time, this "Jesus" who had been humiliated, is being presented to them as the Christ, the Messiah, of prophecy.

 

[tetelestai]

Hebrews 9:28 KJV so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Is this the "rapture"? If no,does this happen before or after your rapture?

 

[john w]

Is this the "rapture"? If no,does this happen before or after your rapture?

It is not "my" rapture, and I have not called on you yet. Be patient. I know that you crave attention, but I find you merely amusing, and quite harmless.

 

[tetelestai]

It is not "my" rapture,

I stand corrected. It's John Nelson Darby's rapture. Sorry.

Let me rephrase the question.

Does Hebrews 9:28 describe John Nelson Darby's rapture? If no,does Hebrews 9:28 happen before or after John Nelson Darby's rapture?

 

[George Affleck]

Why did you alter the passage?

Sorry. You will have to point that out to me. I was not aware I had changed anything.

"So, to put it succinctly, believers are to look for His return for them."

Yes. But they will not have far to look. He will come as a thief in the night, but when He comes, it will be obvious.

So, did the "Second Coming" already happen, and the events depicted, in the book, associated with "the second time? Is your view that He will come again, per the above?

The quick answer is Yes. But that's not a fair answer.

I acknowledge strengths and weaknesses in every eschatological system, including my own, so my present beliefs are only the best I have yet heard. But that does not mean I haven't given it a lot of thought and study.

The scriptures know nothing of a phenomenon known popularly as "the Second Coming". And the book of Revelation, written in apocalyptic language, is primarily concerned with "those things which must shortly come to pass". But, yes, Jesus will come again.

The "second time" refers more to being born again than earthly timeline. If this were not the case, the only ones who could actively "look for His return" would be those who will be physically alive at His coming. But I believe those who are asleep in Him will see Him and are also anticipating His return; but without the shackles of time.

Love, faith and hope are, in my view, objective realities. They have independent existence, operate spiritual lives, and are gifted to God's images (humans) to be used to glorify the Giver. Time, however, is a relativistic illusion. If this is true, no one dies at a different time in God's economy of redemption. They are simply released from all the pressures that physical life wants to put on their gifts. If they have respected them, fed them, nurtured them, they grow into crowns to cast at His feet. If they hate them, they choke them to death and are released into eternity without God's gifts.

Those who are asleep in Him still have their love, faith and hope intact. It sustains them through that valley. All this to say that, when Christ returns, the world burns up, everyone who is left is also released from physical life and Jesus is there to take His own to glory.

2Pe 3:10KJV But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
1 Corinthians 15:52KJV In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:17KJV Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No "type" pictures all of the Lord Jesus Christ-granted. Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Moses,......all "types," portray the Saviour, in some aspect, but not all.

Joseph is portrayed as a type, was also hated by His brethren and given over to death, but later became an exalted ruler and the Saviour of His brethren, the very ones who got rid of Him... Acts 7:13 KJV: Stephen's statement is, “the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren.” Why significant? While the nation Israel had rejected Him, His first coming/advent, Peter, and the gang are now offering His return, per prophecy, to bring in the “Times of refreshing” if Israel repents as a nation...Act 2 KJV ...The context of Stephen's "sermon." The "Jewish leadership," "El the Sanhedrin," knew the prophecies, quite well, and they knew that one day the Messiah/Christ would come to establish the earthly kingdom. But they did not want to believe that this "Jesus" of Nazareth was the Messiah/Christ. Thus, the purpose of Stephen's sermon- They had rejected this Jesus Christ,demanding his death, by crucifixion. They, like the brethren of Joseph, had considered themselves to be rid of Him-forever. But now, the second time, this "Jesus" who had been humiliated, is being presented to them as the Christ, the Messiah, of prophecy.

I have no problem with any of this except to say...
Those who are of the house of Israel must come to Jesus the same way Gentiles do; as Christians. This is why Jesus said; Mat 23:39KJV "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
I don't see this as ever having been rescinded.

 

[tetelestai]

This is why Jesus said; Mat 23:39KJV "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Something to think about:

"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" is from Psalm 118:26

(Psalm 118:26) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD. From the house of the LORD we bless you.

The law required the Israelites to travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the Pilgrimage Feasts (Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles).

In the first century the Jews who lived in Jerusalem would line the streets and sing Psalm 118:26 as the Jews who lived in foreign nations made their way into the city. We see an example of this when Jesus came to Jerusalem for Passover right before they crucified Him:

(John 12:12-13) The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,

“Hosanna!”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”
“Blessed is the king of Israel!”

Later, Jesus tells His Disciples and the crowd that they would not see Him again until they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".

So....what was the very next feast? Answer: Pentecost.

What happened at Pentecost? Answer: Jews from every nation came to Jerusalem, the Jews who lived in Jerusalem sang "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"...then what happened:

(Acts 2:3) Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting

 

[john w]

I stand corrected. It's John Nelson Darby's rapture. Sorry.

Let me rephrase the question.

Does Hebrews 9:28 describe John Nelson Darby's rapture? If no,does Hebrews 9:28 happen before or after John Nelson Darby's rapture?

You're just parroting DeMars, Gentry, Hankie Hannegraaf, Stewey Russell, Tod Dennis, RC Sprouls............................................................................................................. Let me paraphrase my response. Take your seat. I will get to you eventually, as I know you crave attention, assurance, but I view you as merely just amusing, and quite harmless, on TOL.

 

[tetelestai]

You're just parroting DeMars, Gentry, Hankie Hannegraaf, Stewey Russell, Tod Dennis, RC Sprouls............................................................................................................. Let me paraphrase my response. Take your seat. I will get to you eventually, as I know you crave attention, assurance, but I view you as merely just amusing, and quite harmless, on TOL.

As we see, you're afraid to answer the question re: Hebrews 9:28.

This is typical of Dispensationalists. They claim to know how to "rightly divide", but when challenged, always hide from questions.

 

[clefty]

As we see, you're afraid to answer the question re: Hebrews 9:28.

This is typical of Dispensationalists. They claim to know how to "rightly divide", but when challenged, always hide from questions.

“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This for you was fulfilled in 70?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Saints have been reigning with Christ Jesus since 70AD. Sooo.....that kinda proves "a thousand years" isn't literal.

The Lord Jesus said that His kingdom wouldn't even be near until He returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:28-31).​

That explains why He says that it will not be until "then," when He comes in His glory, when He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

According to your uninformed ideas the kingdom is already here despite the fact that the Lord said that the kingdom wouldn't even be near until He comes. You have Him sitting on His throne now and reigning despite the fact that He said that He would sit upon His throne "then," when He comes.

How is it possible that you can be so confused? Do you not believe the words of the Lord Jesus for some reason? Or perhaps you have somehow overlooked these verses?

 

[Rosenritter]

NOWHERE did Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark, James, or anyone else in the NT ever even hint of a third temple.

All NT prophecy says the Second Temple would be destroyed so severe that not one stone would be left standing upon another (fulfilled in 70AD).

Not a peep in the NT about a third temple.

There's reference to a temple in heaven, in the context of the vision of Revelation, but it seems to be symbolic.

Revelation 11:1 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

and when it speaks of "temple" again it is to say that there will be no temple, for there is no need of it any longer.

Revelation 21:22-23 KJV
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
(23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

If there is a third temple, it is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb.

 

[tetelestai]

The Lord Jesus said that His kingdom wouldn't even be near until He returns to the earth:

He returned in 70AD.

That explains why He says that it will not be until "then," when He comes in His glory, when He will sit upon His throne:

Happened in 70AD

According to your uninformed ideas the kingdom is already here despite the fact that the Lord said that the kingdom wouldn't even be near until He comes.

He came in 70AD

You have Him sitting on His throne now and reigning despite the fact that He said that He would sit upon His throne "then," when He comes.

He's been sitting on His throne since 70AD

How is it possible that you can be so confused?

You're more confused than Tony Romo on a safety blitz.

Do you not believe the words of the Lord Jesus for some reason? Or perhaps you have somehow overlooked these verses?

I believe the words of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus made it crystal clear that He would return before the generation of His contemporaries passed away.

(Mark 13:30) Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

It is you, and all your Darby following Dispensationalists who do not believe what the Lord Jesus said in Mark 13:30

 

[tetelestai]

Revelation 11:1 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

That's not the temple in heaven

and when it speaks of "temple" again it is to say that there will be no temple, for there is no need of it any longer.

Correct, there is no third temple in heaven, or on planet earth.

 

[Rosenritter]

Christ Jesus completely fulfilled the Old Testament (Old Covenant).

Every prophecy from the Old Testament has been fulfilled.

You can't use the Old Testament for future prophecies.

Isaiah 11:6-9 KJV
(6) The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
(7) And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
(8) And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
(9) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 65:25 KJV
(25) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 28:16-19 KJV
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Were were doing great for a while, until you declared that Christ already returned and the resurrection was past and that all Old Testament prophecy was already fulfilled.

 

[Rosenritter]

Scripture makes it clear that the law was annulled:

(Heb 7:18) For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

an·nul
/əˈnəl/Submit
verb
declare invalid (an official agreement, decision, or result).
"the elections were annulled by the general amid renewed protests"
synonyms: declare invalid, declare null and void, nullify, invalidate, void, disallow; More
declare (a marriage) to have had no legal existence.

When was the law annulled? And was it fully annulled (how can you partially annul a law?) Hebrews was written before 70 AD?

 

[tetelestai]

This for you was fulfilled in 70?

Yes

 

[George Affleck]

In the first century the Jews who lived in Jerusalem would line the streets and sing Psalm 118:26 as the Jews who lived in foreign nations made their way into the city.

Do you have independent historical corroboration of this?

 

[Rosenritter]

Of course it does;

Rev 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 2:26-27 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Matt 19:27-28 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 19:17-19, 27 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Your attempt to forge a connection between these passages is conjecture. The Scriptures literally say "1,000 years" .... several times;
Rev 20:2-7 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I don't think John wrote "a thousand years" 6 times, in 6 verses, as just a figure of speech.

That thousand years is also a rough length for a human from birth to end of days, at least the way God originally intended for us. With six thousand years of history so far, a seventh thousand years belonging to the LORD would seem like a fitting Sabbath.

 

[Rosenritter]

Christ Jesus completely fulfilled the Old Testament (Old Covenant).

Every prophecy from the Old Testament has been fulfilled.

You can't use the Old Testament for future prophecies.

One more for you:

Isaiah 65:17-20 KJV
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
(19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Now compare these continuing prophesies of the new heavens and the new earth:

2 Peter 3:12-13 KJV
(12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Children still die without seeing a hundred years, the new heavens and the new earth has not been created, and is still prophesied by Peter and John. Both Isaiah and Revelation say this new heavens and new earth will have no more weeping or crying, these are the same prophecy.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/25/us/guatemalan-boy-dies-in-us-custody/index.html

There's the proof and evidence: the prophecy of Isaiah is not yet fulfilled. Children still die. It was on CNN.

 

[Rosenritter]

Christ Jesus reigns right now with the Saints.

You do know a king cannot reign without enemies?

He most certainly did.

No one knows how long the "thousand years" lasts. The only thing we know is that it does come to an end. It's already been longer than 1,000 literal years.

That thousand years starts with Christ's second coming and the first resurrection of the dead, when he is seen coming in clouds, with the voice of the archangel, at the last trump. That certainly hasn't happened yet.

2 Timothy 2:15-18 KJV
(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.