Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

[glorydaz]

yup... Let’s read that one slowly together...

“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another” John 13:34

Nice right? Love...love one another...but HOW?

Right question.

Oh look I bolded it for you...”AS I HAVE LOVED YOU” so does that mean we love one another just any old way? Or how the world loves itself? Or the Buddhists love each other? Or the muslims?

What type of love are we to love each other with? Yup the hint comes in the OT where that love was initially instructed and described and finally lived BY HIM in demonstrating and sealing the NT. So we are to love JUST AS HE LOVED US...

Now

does His love include a seventh day of rest? Yes...does yours?
does His love include only clean meats to eat? Yes...does yours?

Then you get sidetracked.

Jesus was talking to the disciples....who would be laying down their lives soon enough.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.​

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.​

So, when someone brings up foot washing, they need to realize Jesus was speaking to the DISCIPLES. Just as Jesus was speaking to the disciples concerning laying down their lives.

 

[glorydaz]

you mean the love as I loved you one?...that thing has been around for awhile now...almost brand new though hardly used...since not even jews did that...

you mean revelations that opposed prior treaching? Oh wait He didnt...

Oh wait. He did, indeed.

Col. 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[glorydaz]

Yup...Paul actually says we establish Law...neat eh?

Prolly meant wherever we go to whoever we meet...

And the law we establish is just like His or nearly or maybe not even for us?

You seem to be missing Paul's point. When Paul says we establish the law, what does he mean? Clearly it's not for justification.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

 

[Rosenritter]

He'd nail that Old Covenant to the cross with its circumcisions, its sacrifices, its temple veil, its Levitical priesthood, its separation between Jew and Gentile, its unclean meats, sabbaths, commandments, laws, and ordinances.

And he'd give us a new commandment in its place, rise from the dead, confirm his status as the LORD of Hosts through his ascension, and then speak to the twelve and Paul to make sure they understood.

I don't know why you say these things. They are not even accurate.

Every part is accurate. Itemize them and search on keywords and you should get hits. Tell me what items I might clarify with please.

 

[clefty]

Is the Law established in his argument from our personal lives

yes...Paul’s instructions were that we copy him as he copied Christ...and JUST AS...is why he lived and modelled the very same new covenant lifestyle Christ did before He signed the New Covenant with His blood and sealed it with His death...now NO CHANGES as the testator was killed...is why it is a jewish fable or lie or false witness that Paul taught the customs were changed (as is NOT applicable or entirely abolished) by Christ...sadly believed by Christendom...

and yet abolished by him in another book?

again NOT abolished...re read what is required of gentiles NOT FOR SALVATION but merely to fellowship with jews...THE SAME FOUR THINGS REQUIRED OF GOYIM IN THE OT...and again NOT for salvation but merely to “live within thy gates” of those four 3 were regarding kosher laws of Leviticus...please recall back then it was always ONE LAW SAME LAW for native and non native foreigner stranger...goyim were not to commit adultery, not bring food to potlucks previously offered to idols, clean meat not properly slaughtered, clean meat with blood in it...(again some desperate christians attempt to argue that killing a swine properly and draining it of blood makes it clean to eat)

The sum of what is required of gentiles LEAVES IN TACT THE ENTIRETY OF MOSES as James concludes Moses WILL CONTINUE to be read to these gentiles to hear EVERY SABBATH...so there it is...gentiles will hear the word every Sabbath and hearing the word does what? converts the soul psalms 19:7...FAITH comes by hearing...an obedient faith...even more possible now WITH HIM...

Is the argument for the sake of the gospel as opposed to the building up of the Law?

There is no “as opposed to” the gospel is that gentiles are still welcome to the House of prayer for ALL NATIONS now made easier and guaranteed BY HIM THROUGH HIM...

by believing we are ALL now children of promise soveriegn citizens of Israel sons of Abraham and just as Isaac was not by blood but promise...and just like in the OT obedience to those laws retain our citizenship our grafted in adopted status...disobedience reveals a poor graft and rejection of the trunk

Or is the Law really and truly established even as we work it out?

yup...by our love the world will know us...as not like the world but set apart a peculiar people...and as disciples of Him...because we love JUST AS HE LOVED US...not once offering anyone Sunday Ham dinners...

But as even John wrote to the gentiles battling Gnosticism “little ones keep from idols”...”walk even as He walked”...as He was indeed real and for ALL...Gnosticism said otherwise and minimized the Law or righteous living...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Good place to insert

1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies :http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm

Interesting. Why did you post that particular section, may I ask

 

[Jacob]

Every part is accurate. Itemize them and search on keywords and you should get hits. Tell me what items I might clarify with please.

Are you talking about the new twelve then?

 

[Jacob]

yes...Paul’s instructions were that we copy him as he copied Christ...and JUST AS...is why he lived and modelled the very same new covenant lifestyle Christ did before He signed the New Covenant with His blood and sealed it with His death...now NO CHANGES as the testator was killed...is why it is a jewish fable or lie or false witness that Paul taught the customs were changed (as is NOT applicable or entirely abolished) by Christ...sadly believed by Christendom...

again NOT abolished...re read what is required of gentiles NOT FOR SALVATION but merely to fellowship with jews...THE SAME FOUR THINGS REQUIRED OF GOYIM IN THE OT...and again NOT for salvation but merely to “live within thy gates” of those four 3 were regarding kosher laws of Leviticus...please recall back then it was always ONE LAW SAME LAW for native and non native foreigner stranger...goyim were not to commit adultery, not bring food to potlucks previously offered to idols, clean meat not properly slaughtered, clean meat with blood in it...(again some desperate christians attempt to argue that killing a swine properly and draining it of blood makes it clean to eat)

The sum of what is required of gentiles LEAVES IN TACT THE ENTIRETY OF MOSES as James concludes Moses WILL CONTINUE to be read to these gentiles to hear EVERY SABBATH...so there it is...gentiles will hear the word every Sabbath and hearing the word does what? converts the soul psalms 19:7...FAITH comes by hearing...an obedient faith...even more possible now WITH HIM...


There is no “as opposed to” the gospel is that gentiles are still welcome to the House of prayer for ALL NATIONS now made easier and guaranteed BY HIM THROUGH HIM...

by believing we are ALL now children of promise soveriegn citizens of Israel sons of Abraham and just as Isaac was not by blood but promise...and just like in the OT obedience to those laws retain our citizenship our grafted in adopted status...disobedience reveals a poor graft and rejection of the trunk

yup...by our love the world will know us...as not like the world but set apart a peculiar people...and as disciples of Him...because we love JUST AS HE LOVED US...not once offering anyone Sunday Ham dinners...

But as even John wrote to the gentiles battling Gnosticism “little ones keep from idols”...”walk even as He walked”...as He was indeed real and for ALL...Gnosticism said otherwise and minimized the Law or righteous living...

I am not sure what you are saying. I believe you are against Paul but I am not sure.

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you talking about the new twelve then?

I am not sure what you mean. Here, I'll re-quote what you said didn't follow:

"He'd nail that Old Covenant to the cross with its circumcisions, its sacrifices, its temple veil, its Levitical priesthood, its separation between Jew and Gentile, its unclean meats, sabbaths, commandments, laws, and ordinances.

And he'd give us a new commandment in its place, rise from the dead, confirm his status as the LORD of Hosts through his ascension, and then speak to the twelve and Paul to make sure they understood."

Yes, I meant "the initial apostles" and I separated Paul because he arrived later and lacking the personal interaction the former apostles had was spoken to separately by vision. I apologize if my inaccuracy caused confusion.

But I thought that you said that none of it matched.... what did you mean? "Nailed to the cross?" "Circumcisions?" "Sabbaths?" Surely you can't dispute every word (such as "ascension") so if you spell out the question it will help me greatly (I'm not good at reading minds.)

 

[clefty]

Interesting. Why did you post that particular section, may I ask

Cuz lately around here the Law seems to be abolished...no I mean they claim it is not that they behave as if it was...ok maybe...oh whatever...

Others get so MAD there remains anything to indicate a separateness of His and the world they reject even water baptism and the Lord’s supper or even foot washing...with claims nothing applies anymore and it is “do what thou whilst...you are under grace”

So I returned to the original group that rejected Sabbaths...and more...

 

[clefty]

I am not sure what you are saying. I believe you are against Paul but I am not sure.

I am not against Paul who said copy me as I copy Christ...it is good to know how I can express my gratitude for what He did for me...not to earn anything in case you miss that too...

 

[clefty]

Right question.

oh good...phew...

Happily the answer is clear...as it has been from Edenic covenant...our love is trust Him and obey His...

Then you get sidetracked.

Jesus was talking to the disciples....

Who were then to go to ALL nations and make disciples etc...of WHOSOEVER believes

who would be laying down their lives soon enough.

somebody should have told that to the countless goyim martyred for no reason I guess...as it never applied to them...

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.​

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.​

ample evidence John’s first letter here was written to gentiles struggling with Gnostisism...as if He was NOT flesh come for WHOSOEVER or that He expected moral lives...hmmmm...that does sound familiar...

So, when someone brings up foot washing, they need to realize Jesus was speaking to the DISCIPLES. Just as Jesus was speaking to the disciples concerning laying down their lives.

or going to prepare a place for them...

But yes understood some reject Sabbath with “it was made for jews NOT man!” and include rejecting Lord’s supper or water baptism or that we are to be distinct and seperate from the world no longer jew or gentile but IN HIM His people...obedient as Israel His bride is expected to be...and WANTS TO BE...and yes because of promise and not works

 

[clefty]

Oh wait. He did, indeed.

Col. 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What you claim here is NOT opposed to prior teaching that ALL nations were to be made disciples...baptizing them...teaching them to obey EVERYTHING...and by them it is understood not just jews...the disciples were going to do even greater things than He...

because He desires ALL people to be saved...and worship at His House of prayer for all nations...

 

[clefty]

You seem to be missing Paul's point. When Paul says we establish the law, what does he mean? Clearly it's not for justification.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

Been repeating that for months round here...sadly it is NOT clear to your types that works were NEVER FOR JUSTIFICATION but because they were ALREADY saved...because of what He did for them they WANTED to do works and He obliged...do this this and this to show the world you are MINE...

Hebrew slaves were SAVED FIRST and THEN AFTER given the law...

AND NOT for their sake were they saved or for what they did...earned...deserved even...but for HIS NAME’S SAKE...cuz He made a promise to their ancestorial father...

And it was through them their establishing the Law that all nations would be blessed...

And so Paul reminds romans that they are still to establish law...His Law...to bring all nations to His House of Prayer...to live and worship as pleases Him

 

[glorydaz]

Who were then to go to ALL nations and make disciples etc...of WHOSOEVER believes

Then why did they decide to stay in Jerusalem and go only to the Jews.....while Paul went to the Gentiles?

somebody should have told that to the countless goyim martyred for no reason I guess...as it never applied to them...

Not applicable to the point being made.

ample evidence John’s first letter here was written to gentiles struggling with Gnostisism...as if He was NOT flesh come for WHOSOEVER or that He expected moral lives...hmmmm...that does sound familiar...

Oh, so they were breaking the agreement?

Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

 

[glorydaz]

Been repeating that for months round here...sadly it is NOT clear to your types that works were NEVER FOR JUSTIFICATION but because they were ALREADY saved...because of what He did for them they WANTED to do works and He obliged...do this this and this to show the world you are MINE...

Hebrew slaves were SAVED FIRST and THEN AFTER given the law...

AND NOT for their sake were they saved or for what they did...earned...deserved even...but for HIS NAME’S SAKE...cuz He made a promise to their ancestorial father...

And it was through them their establishing the Law that all nations would be blessed...

And so Paul reminds romans that they are still to establish law...His Law...to bring all nations to His House of Prayer...to live and worship as pleases Him

Good, you see the law is not for justification.

It isn't for righteousness either. Is that what you're claiming?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

 

[clefty]

Then why did they decide to stay in Jerusalem and go only to the Jews.....while Paul went to the Gentiles?

They stayed until Pentecost as instructed by Yahushua Himself and received the Holy Spirit and then churches grew

is why Saul persecuted until his conversion...

Barnabas comes to Paul for help with the gentiles...his first real mission trip was about 10 years after that...and to churches not established by HIM full of pesky goyim...

These gentiles were already crowding synagogues every Sabbath to the point that a Jerusalem council had to be called in which Peter affirmed HIS work amongst them...since Yah had already made them clean

Paul’s letters began in earnest only after this in 50AD...plenty of gentiles crowding synagogues on Sabbaths prior these epistles...John writes to seven churches not started by Paul full of them

Not applicable to the point being made.

wrong... imagine the countless lives spared of all those converted goyim had they just had but ONE message “ummmm...these “jewish” things you do are for jews ONLY...stick to being Roman...go ahead and live like your former selves...you are only under grace”

Boy would they be MAD (see what I did there?) being persecuted and killed all for nothing...

Oh, so they were breaking the agreement?

Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

Paul was killed in the 60’s...John’s epistles were written LONG after that...I am sure Paul wouldn't mind being dead and all...

And still John instructed “keep the commandments...they are NOT burdensome”...

Is why goyim were crowding synagogues every Sabbath to hear Moses and One resurrected...even long after 4 rules of fellowship were required...the rest was NO burden...especially that Sabbath rest

Only later centuries when anti-semites desired to be less jewish and more European were significant changes made to seperate from that church in the wilderness...

until then “the Way” was persecuted by rome as a jewish sect but not jewish enough by jerusalem

 

[clefty]

Good, you see the law is not for justification.

It isn't for righteousness either. Is that what you're claiming?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

Nope not for righteousness either...of course that is a by product of the work the Spirit does in us...our own is not enough...

Works are because we were saved justified and now wish to become more righteous, re-made by Him, His work in us, BECAUSE we WANT to please Him be MORE LIKE Him less like our former selves less like the world...BECAUSE He saved us...

Faith without works is DEAD...faith compels works...good works...His works...works He gives us to do by the Spirit to follow...not just hearers but doers...if we love Him

Like the faith of Abraham made him ever more obedient and righteousness was accounted to him...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Jesus plus nothing is keeping the Law...as He did...and asked us to do...if we love Him

Do not confuse Law (Torah) with the laws Jesus established. When Paul speaks of the Law, as a former pharisee, he means the Torah. And Yes, the Torah is out the window and we do not go by that law. BUT Jesus does lay down commands of things we must DO to be saved. You can use any word you want to to describe them - laws, commands, rules, requirements, works - but its all the same in the end. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Cuz lately around here the Law seems to be abolished...no I mean they claim it is not that they behave as if it was...ok maybe...oh whatever...

Others get so MAD there remains anything to indicate a separateness of His and the world they reject even water baptism and the Lord’s supper or even foot washing...with claims nothing applies anymore and it is “do what thou whilst...you are under grace”

So I returned to the original group that rejected Sabbaths...and more...

Wellll.... .....we did not reject the Sabbath, we just practice what was considered to be the fulfillment of the law from the very beginning, which is worshiping on the first day of the week, the day that Jesus rose from the dead.

There are people who think there is no law at all because they confuse the Law (Torah) with just any old law, and that's wrong, and then there are those who think that the whole ball of wax in the OT is in force. This forum is stuffed with religious idiots.


Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108​

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

 

[Robert Pate]

Of course, since you are a man pleaser, not following the satanic assertions of "Pate-anity," not following any, much less reading, of his "arguments," in his duplicate, spam threads, you would not know, that He, on record, rejects the gospel of Christ. Go ahead and challenge me on it, and defend this devil child, man pleaser, and I will pick you apart, as I/others, have picked apart Pate's doctrine of demons.

In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

John W. does not believe this. He is a religious reprobate that is without understanding.

His purpose on this Forum is to intimidate true born again Christians and cause them to leave the Forum.