Riots in Ferguson MO. USA

[The Barbarian]

No doubt there is police brutality and over reaching in practice. That doesn't erase lawlessness and brutality within the community.

Precisely. The few morons who took advantage of the situation to loot some stores, just gave racists their opportunity to suggest that black people deserve to be treated brutally.

It is, as PureX suggests, a Rorshach test. Racists focus not on the homicide, but on the idiots who became violent in return. Extreme libertarians see police as an occupying power completely out of control.

Neither of those ideas are rational; they are merely projections of one's own emotional difficulties.

The first order of business is to get to the bottom of the killing and see that justice is served. The second thing is for the police department and the black community to deal with the thugs among them.

 

[resurrected]

Precisely. The few morons who took advantage of the situation to loot some stores, just gave racists their opportunity to suggest that black people deserve to be treated brutally.

and who's been doing that?


other than you, i mean

 

[The Barbarian]

So you're saying Ferguson was some kind of crime-riddled hellhole, or something, before this (unarmed) teenager was shot?

It's really not like that. My daughter goes to college in St. Louis. Ferguson is not like some kind of ghetto. Go to Google Earth, and drop in on the street cam. Not a place you'd associate with a corrupt police department or decaying neighborhoods.

Older homes in much of it, but generally well-kept up.

I'm not sure what "lawlessness" you're referring to. Again, sounds like victim blaming.

In every group, you'll find the lawless. That's not victim-blaming, it's a fact. But of course, the lawless on all sides will point to the lawless on other sides as an excuse for their behavior.

 

[PureX]

I don't think every cop uses militaristic tactics. But I think those who do by and large get away with it. And even those who don't aren't good. They're still helping to propagate the system. I'm not opposed to authority of all types. I'm opposed to aggression of all types.

You're opposed to "the system". Which is foolish, as humanity has a very long history showing that it's far better off with an organized government than without it. Even though we know that any form of government will be susceptible to corruption and abuse.

Unfortunately, the only way to eliminate human aggression is to eliminate humanity. And since we don't really want to do that (or most of us don't, anyway), we need to find ways of containing it for the well-being of everyone. And that's the primary function of government.

 

[This Charming Manc]

Overly simplistic.

Hamas are initiating deadly force consistently to achieve political ends.

I'm sure if I launched 20 missiles a day at the USA or the UK I would be met with massive overwhelming and deadly force.

The humanitarian situation is made worse by Hamas hiding is missiles behind women and children. Tactically and strategically a 'wise move', but shows the level of contempt that Hamas has for its own civilian population.

I disagree strongly with Israels long term policy as regards Palestine, but I cant see what other option they have due to Hamas actions.

No country can stand by whilst another force fires rockets at its people.

However sideline - start another thread if you want to respond

If responding to someone spitting on you by blowing off their head with a high-powered machine gun can be considered "defending yourself."

 

[The Barbarian]

It's a pretty good definition of stupidity, to shoot arrows at a guy with an Uzi and then complain when he shoots back at you.

 

[This Charming Manc]

Back to the OP..

Back to the OP..

A view from across the pond.

• Seems like a young black man was very stupid with a police officer, and was in the wrong and committed a criminal act
• Looks like he backed down and had surrendered after the first shot
• It looks like he was then murdered in cold blood
• Looks can be deceptive and these appearances need to be tested in a court of law.
• It seems like there is a disconnect between this police force and the population it polices.
• It also looks like the police force has moved to protect its own like they often do regardless of wrong or right.
• I can only fault wider in government in time it has taken to take the local police force out of the equation, but to support general law and order.

I'm not saying the officer is guilty, but from where I'm standing there is a case to be answered.

I also appreciate policing in a highly armed culture is very different than policing over here, it makes me glad that if I decided to get 'beered up' and took a swing at a police officer, I may better pepper sprayed and smacked across the head with a night stick, but i'm not going to get shot like a dog in the street.

 

[jgarden]

A byproduct of having the 2nd Amendment is that the police assume that everyone they suspect is armed - so they shoot first and ask questions later!

 

[drbrumley]

The photographing of police officers attempting to do their job has gotten way out of hand Nick, to the point where it frequently interferes with the officer's investigation or arrest.

You really believe this nonsense don't you?

 

[drbrumley]

A byproduct of having the 2nd Amendment is that the police assume that everyone they suspect is armed - so they shoot first and ask questions later!

This is true, yet it wasn't that way when the amendment was written. You are now guilty and have to prove your innocence. Bizzarro world!

 

[journey]

I agree with this, but I think the reason people are upset with this particular incident is twofold. Locally, it's because this incident is endemic of the perceived ongoing mistreatment of people of color from the local police. And I would suspect that their complaints are based on actuality, seeing how their community is 78% black while their police force is only 10% black. Anytime you see that kind of disparity, there will very likely be racism behind it.

Nationally, however, I think people are upset for a very different reason; and that is that they have been seeing police forces all across the country, including their own, stockpiling military weapons and equipment, which can only have the purpose of being used against them, should they ever dare to protest the powers that be. And that, too, is based on actuality. There is no legitimate reason for local police to have those kinds of weapons and equipment.

I also see the racial percentages as a problem, but we don't know about the city's recruiting. Qualified applicants of any race must apply before they can be hired.

There are actually numerous good reasons why the police need more advanced weapons. I remember a time when criminals had better weapons than the police. Simply, that's not a good thing. There is also the serious potential of terrorist events. Various levels of government don't budget for the purchase of weapons without solid reasons.

 

[The Barbarian]

Connie whines:

The photographing of police officers attempting to do their job has gotten way out of hand Nick, to the point where it frequently interferes with the officer's investigation or arrest.

Brumley responds:

You really believe this nonsense don't you?

Barbarian observes:
And yet, the police are constantly claiming they have to photograph us at every opportunity, sometimes legal, sometimes not.

Even worse, it turns out that Florida police were using a special device that allowed them to monitor cell phone calls on anyone they chose to tap. They explained to a court that they didn't need to get a warrant, because they had signed a non-disclosure agreement with the maker of the device.

I have a camera with me almost always. Few officers are dumb enough to object, but I've had to occasionally explain the law to them, and suggest that if they aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to fear from a photo.

The courts have been more than kind to police regarding what amounts to interference, but they have never supported the idea that merely being photographed in the course of their duties amounts to"interference."

 

[PureX]

I also see the racial percentages as a problem, but we don't know about the city's recruiting. Qualified applicants of any race must apply before they can be hired.

Given the high rate of unemployment among young black men, I find it difficult to believe that there is a shortage of them applying to cop school. Which is where they become qualified. According the the x-mayor of Ferguson, the other suburbs are hiring them all away. But I find that difficult to believe. Why would those other suburbs be able to pay that much more? They're all part of the same metro economy. I would be more inclined to believe that there's some other reason why the black cadets go to the other municipalities.

There are actually numerous good reasons why the police need more advanced weapons. I remember a time when criminals had better weapons than the police. Simply, that's not a good thing. There is also the serious potential of terrorist events. Various levels of government don't budget for the purchase of weapons without solid reasons.

There is no good reason that I can think of that the police should need heavy military weapons and equipment. Mostly because we already have a military that is very well trained and very well equipped to handle heavily armed combatants within or outside our borders. And the police already have SWAT teams and technology to deal with the kind of special circumstances that they might encounter requiring special weapons and expertise.

Allowing the police to acquire the means to do battle with citizens is a big mistake, because in this country, we have the right to rebel, and to rebel against our own police.

 

[Granite]

People who would usually screech about government abuse and over reach don't care in this case. We have paramilitary thugs in the streets. Journalists abused and arrested for no reason whatsoever. We have tyranny, firsthand. Clearer than Waco.

And you guys do nothing but justify it.

You know what, go to hell. All of you. You chomping munching window-steaming freaks. All of you. The world you want to replace this one with is worse than the one we have. And you do, and say, nothing.

You fascists.

Seriously, go to hell. You're not just enablers--you're cheerleaders.

 

[quip]

so if prison is not the final result for all unproductive citizens then what is?

What?

Did you even watch the video?

 

[Alate_One]

A byproduct of having the 2nd Amendment is that the police assume that everyone they suspect is armed - so they shoot first and ask questions later!

Nah, usually only if you're black.

If you're white you can go to restaurants with an AR 15 and nothing happens to you.

But if you're a black guy you can't walk around with a pellet gun at a Wal-Mart without getting killed.

There seems to be an unfortunate instinct with many police officers that people of color, especially black men are inherently more dangerous and thus more likely to be shot or arrested vs. a white person doing the same things.

 

[quip]

Nah, usually only if you're black.

Could blacks (specifically, young black males) be partially blamed for this?

 

[Alate_One]

Could blacks (specifically, young black males) be partially blamed for this?

To some degree, obviously there is a statistical problem with regards to certain crimes. However, judging an individual based on the statistics for people with the same skin color is prejudice. It should be obvious prejudice is fundamentally unfair and wrong.

Also as far as drugs go, both blacks and whites tend to use drugs at similar rates, but blacks are arrested more frequently and receive harsher sentences. Self fulfilling prophecy anyone?

How many innocent young black men are targeted? It's hard to be sure when police protect one another. Here's one example.

 

[quip]

To some degree, obviously there is a statistical problem with regards to certain crimes. However, judging an individual based on the statistics for people with the same skin color is prejudice. It should be obvious prejudice is fundamentally unfair and wrong.

Also as far as drugs go, both blacks and whites tend to use drugs at similar rates, but blacks are arrested more frequently and receive harsher sentences. Self fulfilling prophecy anyone?

How many innocent young black men are targeted? It's hard to be sure when police protect one another. Here's one example.

I appreciate that you didn't simply hand wave my question away.
Yes, there's some bad karma on both sides of the fence....that said, both need to do a little fence-mending before accusing the other side of wholesale wrongdoings.

 

[The Barbarian]

How many innocent young black men are targeted? It's hard to be sure when police protect one another. Here's one example.

From your link:
In 2011, Alex was awarded a $795,000 settlement by the City of Denver. Two of the police officers involved have since been fired for uses of excessive force not related to this incident.

What kind of idiot police chief would keep people like that on the force after this event? He had to wait until they did it again, to figure out he was turning armed criminals lose on the city?

And yeah, there are lots of thuggish young black men. Which wouldn't justify why this particular guy was beaten to a pulp for nothing but asking if he had to consent to a search of his car. I wonder how many police officers would think it O.K for people to beat them, because some police are criminals.