Riots in Ferguson MO. USA

[IMJerusha]

You are wrong, and you know nothing of the proper way to deal with threats because you have no training. Stop pretending you know what honor is, or what a hero is, you don't. Heroes act out of unselfishness, a love for mankind, and in lethal situations they do what is best for the group, not what is best for their best friend, and let everyone else die. If you had to go through the process of deciding whether or not to award medals, and had to read the testimony of those that survived lethal encounters, and analyze those situations, and then make recommendations that are subject to the harsh criticism of those you serve with, then you would understand what I am saying, and what THall was trying to teach you. Unfortunately you have no real world experience in these matters and have chosen an emotional argument to defend a friend rather than the truth.

The fact that you would slander a man who has displayed unthinkable courage in situations so dire you can't even imagine them, just shows your ignorance, and foolishness, and is not to your credit.

You are measuring those with military training against civilians, most of whom have never heard a gun report in real life and certainly don't expect to when attending the theater. To use that military assessment against civilians after the fact is pathetic and cruel but you and THall have constantly exhibited that sort of attitude so I have no idea why Anna, Town or anyone here should expect any better from you. "Heroes act out of unselfishness, a love for mankind," and in the civilian arena this also applies. For folks who are so anti militarization, you sure do like to use it to step on peoples necks!

 

[PureX]

Unless there's a "Rose Garden" out there somewhere, we are all victims Granite.
That is, if we choose to assume that label.
Personally, when I am maliciously or premeditatedly wronged by someone. I see myself as "Wrong righter" in progress.
Stuff happens to all of us over which we have little or no control. That is life.
A very wise man "Victor Frankl stated that ..."often, when we have no control over the things happening to us, still, we do have control over our attitude to them"...and therein lies all the difference.

The difference is that Victor Frankl was not born into the extreme hardship that he was forced to endure. He had some knowledge and experience of a better life and better people to guide him.

When the extreme hardship has become generational, and culturally accepted, it becomes very difficult to identify any other possibility but despair and hopelessness. And once those become one's reality, it's extremely difficult to overcome it.

 

[bybee]

The difference is that Victor Frankl was not born into the extreme hardship that he was forced to endure. He had some knowledge and experience of a better life and better people to guide him.

When the extreme hardship has become generational, and culturally accepted, it becomes very difficult to identify any other possibility but despair and hopelessness. And once those become one's reality, it's extremely difficult to overcome it.

All true. Yet some do break out. They are the ones who realize that hopelessness and despair gets them no where! Instead of bemoaning their fates and envying those who have it better they get busy and stay in school, get part time jobs, learn the ropes. They persevere.
We are all born into the world with a different burden to bear.

 

[bybee]

Finding fault is crucial, as it provides a view of the problem that is necessary to any effective plan of redress.

No. I disagree. One must assess a situation to determine if it needs fixing. If it needs fixing, what is the first step?

 

[PureX]

No. I disagree. One must assess a situation to determine if it needs fixing. If it needs fixing, what is the first step?

"Needs fixing" means that something is wrong. But wrong how? The only way to know is to assess the dysfunction, and identify the cause.

When we have been abused, or "victimized", we become damaged/dysfunctional in some way as a result. To correct that dysfunction we need to understand how it happened; both the cause and the result, so that we can then determine how to change them. We need to know that we have been victimized, and in what way, and by whom.

 

[PureX]

All true. Yet some do break out. They are the ones who realize that hopelessness and despair gets them no where! Instead of bemoaning their fates and envying those who have it better they get busy and stay in school, get part time jobs, learn the ropes. They persevere.
We are all born into the world with a different burden to bear.

You still don't seem to be understanding the difference.

If I grow up in a world without water, it's a world without water, to me. I see no other world but mine. I know of no other world but this waterless one. Other people may grow up somewhere else, where there is water, and so they can believe in a world that has water. And that's great for them. But it's 'apples and oranges'. And only a fool would expect the man who grows up in a world without water to somehow, magically, come to believe that water exists, and that he can somehow get access to it, if he just tries hard enough. Because no man is ever going to believe that without at least some kind of evidence.

Poverty is the lack of that evidence, and the consequential lack of hope that results.

 

[bybee]

You still don't seem to be understanding the difference.

If I grow up in a world without water, it's a world without water, to me. I see no other world but mine. I know of no other world but this waterless one. Other people may grow up somewhere else, where there is water, and so they can believe in a world that has water. And that's great for them. But it's 'apples and oranges'. And only a fool would expect the man who grows up in a world without water to somehow, magically, come to believe that water exists, and that he can somehow get access to it, if he just tries hard enough. Because no man is ever going to believe that without at least some kind of evidence.

Poverty is the lack of that evidence, and the consequential lack of hope that results.

"No man is an island. No man stands alone...." (John Dunne)
If all I know is waterlessness then how would I come to desire water?
If I desire water then I must take steps to obtain it.
Also, (Robert Burns) "A man is a man for all of that...."

 

[PureX]

"No man is an island. No man stands alone...." (John Dunne)
If all I know is waterlessness then how would I come to desire water?
If I desire water then I must take steps to obtain it.
Also, (Robert Burns) "A man is a man for all of that...."

My example wasn't about the water, it was about the belief in gaining access to it. In a world where you have no experience of such access, there is little reason to try. Sure, a few will try, anyway. But even of those, how many still fail? And in their failing, add even more evidence for hopelessness.

But all you want to see are the rare few that succeed, and then presume they all could have, if they'd only tried harder. And that's really a terrible lie. Because it's the lie that keeps the abuse of poverty justified, and so potently effective.

 

[fool]

Post of the YEAR!!!!!!!!!:first:





I gotta sleep....nobody will top that post.....ciao!

If you can find a user named Stripe he has a link in his sig where you can nominate a post for the users choice post of the year award.

 

[resurrected]

Oh snap...which was likely the audible sound just before you penned that. lain:

you use a pen on your keyboard? :freak:

:think:

maybe they wouldn't snap if you just used yer fingers like the rest of us mere mortals :idunno:

...every commentary I'm aware of notes it as I applied it to Aurora.

every commentary you're aware of notes it in the context of cowering in fear while others around you are brutally slaughtered?

you've been reading those liberal blogs again, haven't you? :nono:

 

[IMJerusha]

unlike some others who got a free boat ride

I can't believe you could post something this ugly.

Post of the YEAR!!!!!!!!!:first:





I gotta sleep....nobody will top that post.....ciao!

I can believe you would hail it. lain: Do Yeshua a favor and change your name.

 

[bybee]

My example wasn't about the water, it was about the belief in gaining access to it. In a world where you have no experience of such access, there is little reason to try. Sure, a few will try, anyway. But even of those, how many still fail? And in their failing, add even more evidence for hopelessness.

But all you want to see are the rare few that succeed, and then presume they all could have, if they'd only tried harder. And that's really a terrible lie. Because it's the lie that keeps the abuse of poverty justified, and so potently effective.

In all walks of life very few succeed and realize their dreams.
I do not presume that all could succeed.
All do not wish to succeed. All are not willing to work at making a better life.
But our visionaries dream dreams for us. Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. dreamed dreams for all of us. Ghandi dreamed dreams for all of us. Sister Kenny dreamed dreams to treat polio patients. She couldn't prevent and she couldn't cure but she could provide treatment and care. She was a step on the way to a preventive cure.
She did not wallow in despair!
Poverty has existed since the advent of city states.
Some who are born poor die poor. Some do not.
Individual responsibility cannot be ignored nor can societal responsibility be ignored.

 

[resurrected]

I can't believe you could post something this ugly.

lighten up francis


and educate yourself on the steerage conditions of irish immigrants fleeing the potato famines

 

[Angel4Truth]

When one has been victimized, the very first step on the road to recovery is to recognize that one has been victimized. And to figure out by whom, and in what ways, so they can begin to correct the situation.

The victimizers, however, always want to overlook this first step, so they can continue pretending that they are innocent, even as they continue their abuse. And thus, they continue to be an impediment to recovery, regardless of their claims to the contrary.

This is what we are seeing and hearing loud and clear from Ferguson, Mo., and from the various racists, bigots, and would-be abusers here on TOL.

And after recognizing that one is a victim or thinks themselves one, they should immediately make victims of others right?

 

[resurrected]

purex wants to see victims so that he can feel superior to those whom he claims victimize others

it's his way of claiming the superior moral high ground :chuckle:

 

[IMJerusha]

lighten up francis

No. You implied that black slaves had it easy on their "free boat rides".

and educate yourself on the steerage conditions of irish immigrants fleeing the potato famines

Don't have to. Got it straight from the horse's mouth...so to speak, albeit a wee horse with a wee mouth. All of my ancestors came through Ellis.

 

[resurrected]

No. You implied that black slaves had it easy on their "free boat rides".

nope

Don't have to. Got is straight from the horse's mouth.

you knew a horse that was alive in 1850? :freak:

 

[IMJerusha]

nope

Oh, of course not!

you knew a horse that was alive in 1850? :freak:

My ancestors could write, you know, and my GreatGrandparents and Grandparents told my Dad and Mom who told me. As far as I'm concerned, that's the horse's mouth.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

English is a low context culture.

English is a culture instead of a language? Who knew? LOL.

The culture of English-thinkers/-speakers is low-context to augment and compensate for the high-context language.

So what's your source material?

The term psuche in that passage, and it's low-context depth of meaning. I don't need to build concepts first from high-context patterns of thought. The depth of meaning isn't in the context, it's in the words themselves.

Content before concept, not concept before content.

Rather, it may include the other as foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice, but for the rest of us it's about our literal and physical life, which is why every commentary I'm aware of notes it as I applied it to Aurora.

No. Context doesn't drive content. That's English conceptualization. That passage isn't limited to being about laying down our physical lives. Few do that or ever have the opportunity to do that.

On the other hand, we are to walk in such love as to lay down our soul life. All that we are in ourselves as we put on Christ. It isn't about taking a bullet, thought that's a sub-set meaning if applicable.

And no need to refer to the Aurora false flag event or others.:think:

 

[Town Heretic]

English is a culture instead of a language? Who knew? LOL.

The English language is an extension of low context culture. I didn't think the short hand would be problematic for you. Mea culpa.

The culture of English-thinkers/-speakers is low-context to augment and compensate for the high-context language.

Says who/what's your authority? Are you arguing from Hall's anthropological work?

Context doesn't drive content. That's English conceptualization.

Rather, context tells us if by bread we mean something to eat or to spend. It is, literally, the frame by which we apply primary, secondary and tertiary understanding. So I noted the application and agreement in multiple authorities specializing in the examination of scripture.

What's your authority/reference point again?

That passage isn't limited to being about laying down our physical lives. Few do that or ever have the opportunity to do that.

Probably why I didn't claim it was "limited". Rather, I applied it to a limited circumstance. The scripture was meant to both illustrate and foreshadow, which I noted.

And no need to refer to the Aurora false flag event or others.:think:

False flag how, in what sense? It's an example of sacrifice that Christ honored by noting it as the greatest love you or I can manage.