REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

[Turbo]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. – 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Freak do you dismiss the support for the death penalty in Revelation in light of this?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Crow
Do you realize that the story of the redemption of man has a flip side? Not all men are going to be redeemed. The scriptures are as much a story of the fate of the unredeemed as it is of redemption.

Wonderful point, Crow!

 

[Freak]

Turbo & Crow--

The "law of Moses" was that code which specifically constituted Israel as a special nation (Deut.4:7-8; Neh.9:13). But this "law of Moses" was always thought of as a totality (including all the laws). He could not separate the "Ten Words" from the "civil" and "ceremonial" laws. Friends, this Law is superceded by a superior Covenant which you both now lived under.

The Old Covenant has been "abolished" (katargesas, Eph. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:11, 13) and "wiped out" (exalepsas, Col. 2:14). It is in fact the very Mosaic covenant that is now annulled and replaced (Heb. 8:6-9:1; 2 Cor. 3), not just a part of it. With the covenant itself abolished, its law (Ex. 34:27-28) is likewise no longer in force.

Enyart is attempting to place people, with articles like this one, in bondage to the Old Covenant and it's teachings. The Law has been replaced by a superior Covenant. Liberate yourself with this truth.

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8:6-13)

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. (Galatians 4:4-7)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:10-14)

We are free indeed from the Old!!!!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
And Acts is yet another book.

Where's the state's endorsement of the death penalty? You're making things up.

God feels both love and hatred.

Is hate part of his nature. The third time I have asked you this.

Do you realize that the story of the redemption of man has a flip side?

Again for the third time, what is the focal point of Scripture---is it not God's plan of loving man to Himself. In fact, His Word tells us He's not wanting any to perish. Were you aware of this? He did not come into the world to condemn, were you aware of this, Crow?

 

[Turbo]

Freak, are unbelievers going to be judged according to the law?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
Is hate part of his nature[?]

Yes.


Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. – Romans 12:9

The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. Psalm 5:6b

He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 17:15


You may want to especially ponder that last one, Freak.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
Where's the state's endorsement of the death penalty? You're making things up.

I'm making Acts up? LOL. You stated Revalations is just one book of the Bible, I gave you another.

Freak, the state at this time remained the Romans. I believe they continued with the death penalty. I don't see any evidence that the Jews discontinued it either.

Is hate part of his nature. The third time I have asked you this.

Yes. God hates as well as loves.

Again for the third time, what is the focal point of Scripture---is it not God's plan of loving man to Himself. In fact, His Word tells us He's not wanting any to perish. Were you aware of this? He did not come into the world to condemn, were you aware of this, Crow?

I know that He states that He does not want any to perish, and I know that He states that many will. He provides free will, and the flip side of free will is that those who chose not to have a relationship with Him will most assurredly perish, and it won't be like putting your puppy to sleep either.

Freak--the Scripture tells of God's desire for a relationship between Him and man, of the means He arrainged for this relationship to take place, and the fate of those who accept the relationship, and the fate of those who do not. God is pretty good at condemnation, Freak. He may not desire to do so, but He's awesome at it when the situation demands it. We as Christians should be the same.

 

[brother Willi]

Bob writes

Jesus warned against judging falsely or with hypocrisy. For immediately after saying "judge not," Jesus taught just how to judge correctly:





"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?... Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye." Mat. 7:3, 5



Christ kept this theme throughout His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord's harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath and hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians, though, should relocate. Move into "the temple of the great God, which is being built with heavy stones" (Ezra 5:8).

So if I have a plank, Why not kill me?
Why am I allowed to remove it to look for a speck.
Shall I remove my plank, then stone to death one who has a speck?

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
Whos sword?

Just heard one of the priests that went to jail for mollesting kids got killed in jail.
You could say he died by the sword.
Maybe those who kill with a sword will die by the sword in that way.
A murderer killed by a murderer

I should add, I am not judging the man.
Only making a point for a question

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
Whos sword?

The governments'. Revelation 13:10 phrases it this way: "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword." God is not saying that violence breeds violence with this statement. He is talking about justice.

God does not give individuals are not to avenge themselves:

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Romans 12:19

But He does delegate the responsibility of punishing criminals to governments, and commands them to use capital punishment:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

So God tells us not to avenge ourselves, but that we are to give place to God's wrath. And in the next chapter, we are told that God has delegated the responsibility of punishing criminals to governing authorities.

So if I have a plank, Why not kill me?

Not all sins are are crimes, let alone captital ones. Furthermore, governments generally don't enforce justice the way they're supposed to. Also as I've shown above, civilians do not have the authority to punish criminals.

Just heard one of the priests that went to jail for mollesting kids got killed in jail.

If the child molester had been swiftly executed like he should have been, the other inmate would not have committed that murder. If the government had been swiftly executed all convicted child molesters, this guy probably would not have abused the children in the first place. He would have been afraid of punishment, as described in the above passage from Romans 13. But instead, he and others are enboldened to commit horrible crimes, because there is little threat of swift and harsh punishment:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

 

[drbrumley]

Outstanding piece of explaining Turbo, Keep it up

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
Bob writes


So if I have a plank, Why not kill me?
Why am I allowed to remove it to look for a speck.
Shall I remove my plank, then stone to death one who has a speck?

Not every punishment is capital. This passage, by the way, is not addressing what type of punishment. It is instructing people to judge correctly, and not be hypocrites. It is saying that if you are guilty of a sin, you have to clean up your own act first, then you can judge another and help them clean up their act.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
Whos sword?

This is not a passage which addresses who should be the executioner in capital punishment, nor anything near it. This passage is a statement that violent people come to violent ends.

Just heard one of the priests that went to jail for mollesting kids got killed in jail.
You could say he died by the sword.
Maybe those who kill with a sword will die by the sword in that way.
A murderer killed by a murderer

The molestor should have never been in jail under God's criminal justice system. He should have been promptly tried, and if found guilty, executed. God did not specify "put all the murderers together with the molesters, and let them all kill each other. That's hardly an endorsement for "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" as a form of execution.

I should add, I am not judging the man.
Only making a point for a question

Why is it impossible to judge that a man who just murdered another criminal contrary to process of law is guilty of murder?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Outstanding piece of explaining Turbo, Keep it up

Thank you very much, sir.
:cheers:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
I'm making Acts up? LOL. You stated Revalations is just one book of the Bible, I gave you another.

What are you talking about???? Neither does Acts nor the book of the Revelation endorse the State's use of the death penalty.

Freak, the state at this time remained the Romans. I believe they continued with the death penalty. I don't see any evidence that the Jews discontinued it either.

God have mercy on you!!! The state do many things contrary to God's revealed will. Like I said, the New Covenant does not endorse the states option to put people to death.

Yes. God hates as well as loves.

Is God's nature one of hate or love--what does 1 John 4:8 tell you?

Freak--the Scripture tells of God's desire for a relationship between Him and man, of the means He arrainged for this relationship to take place, and the fate of those who accept the relationship, and the fate of those who do not. God is pretty good at condemnation, Freak.

...that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Your idea of who God is has been tainted by Enyart. Re-read this verse a few times.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
The governments'. Revelation 13:10 phrases it this way: "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword." God is not saying that violence breeds violence with this statement. He is talking about justice.

And this is your evidence for the State's endorsement for the death penalty? Who will be ruling during this time in Revelation 13? Context is everything!!!

But He does delegate the responsibility of punishing criminals to governments, and commands them to use capital punishment.

You have to show us where God endorsed the state to faciliate the death penalty. The Romans passage does not endorse the death penalty--it simply points to the reality that the governement possesses the authority (the sword) to carry out punishment.

This is consistent with what Jesus did to a murderer (Paul) He encountered. He saved him, not put him to death. The gospel message is much more powerful weapon to fight crime then the death penalty.

 

[drbrumley]

Freak says, (just a side note from DRBrumley)

The New Covenant is a superior Covenant that's probably why people tire of the insistence on going back to the Old.

Freak translation, even if he doesn't realize it==============GOD Changed

By his own words God changed covenants. And Freak says God doesn't change.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
What are you talking about???? Neither does Acts nor the book of the Revelation endorse the State's use of the death penalty.

God have mercy on you!!! The state do many things contrary to God's revealed will. Like I said, the New Covenant does not endorse the states option to put people to death.

God never repeals the death penalty.

Is God's nature one of hate or love--what does 1 John 4:8 tell you?

[/b]

It tells me that one aspect of God's nature is love. It is not exclusive--God has other aspects as well. Revalations is full of testimony to God's other aspects. Does God love evil? Of course not. Just because He is a God of love does not preclude His hating. There are numerous places in the Bible where God states that He hates.

Deuteronomy 12:31
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

We have a few possibilities here. 1) This is a snippet from a non-scriptural source. 2) God's entire nature changed, and He is no longer the God who created us. 3) This is discussing some other god, not our God. 4) God fibbed. 5) God hates as well as loves.

....that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Your idea of who God is has been tainted by Enyart. Re-read this verse a few times.

I read it. God loved the world. He gave his only Son. Whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish. As for whosoever does not believeth in Him.....what happens to them, Freak?

As for Bob Enyart "tainting" my view of God, you're right, Freak. I didn't believe God existed until I ran across Bob Enyart. Now I do. Thanks again, Bob!

 

[CapnFungi]

I agree with you Crow!

Bob is a cool dude!

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Freak says, (just a side note from DRBrumley)



Freak translation, even if he doesn't realize it==============GOD Changed

By his own words God changed covenants. And Freak says God doesn't change.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Could it be said, the people changed?

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Crow
This is not a passage which addresses who should be the executioner in capital punishment, nor anything near it. This passage is a statement that violent people come to violent ends.


The molestor should have never been in jail under God's criminal justice system. He should have been promptly tried, and if found guilty, executed. God did not specify "put all the murderers together with the molesters, and let them all kill each other. That's hardly an endorsement for "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" as a form of execution.

:think:

 

[drbrumley]

Willi,

You said,

Could it be said, the people changed?

I agree, people did change! That's a fact. But because of this, God changed the rules for us. Humanity was no longer good after sin entered the picture. God changed how he dealt with us. God didn't change His character, but changed His mind, unless of course one believes Adam and Eve's fall was planned and everything that has ever happened was all planned. Making us mere ROBOTS instead of human beings that God wants to have a relationship with. And this is where Freak sides that we are nothing more than ROBOTS!

In Christ,
DRBrumley