REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

[drbrumley]

OK, I will retract my statement that Freak thinks we are robots. But I will add I dont think Freak has thought any of his doctrine out fully.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
Exactly my point. God is not hate. God is love.

Half quoting your opponents reply and pretending you have won is not a tactic worthy of you, Freak. You skipped over the "God hates many things" part. You should be rejoicing that you are only arguing with me, and not someone who can really debate.

Themselves--for clarification purposes re-read this verse--it will liberate you---that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I argee to the point that is people's freewill choices that send them to Hell, but that is only part of the equation. Christ saves us by His sacrifice.
People are going to Hell. If there is no law that condemns them, and God doesn't condemn them, how do they get there. It is apparant that Christ covers some sort of sins for us, isn't it? Where do these sins come from if there is no law to condemn actions?

Another lie. I love him and ask God's blessings upon his family.

Freak, you use the word lie as promiscuously as a 2-bit hooker in a mine camp. Is a question a lie? In light of the statement you made about Bob tainting my view of God, and some others, it is a valid question. Stating that a question is a lie might be construed as false witness.

 

[drbrumley]

As you can see, Freak ADMITS God instituted the Death Penalty. And then when Jesus came, God repealed it. What Freak can't or won't admit to is God changed the rules. HE CHANGED THE RULES WITHOUT CHANGING HIS CHARACTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[elected4ever]

When Nathon confronted King David with his sin I believe that God was prepared to kill him on the spot if he had denighted the sin.

In stead of saying God changes why not say that God also makes choices as to how he will treat us in any given situation. I donot belive that my choices are known to God before I make them but he does respond according to His carrictor. The carrictor of God never changes but He does make choices in response to a given cercumstance.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by elected4ever
When Nathon confronted King David with his sin I believe that God was prepared to kill him on the spot if he had denighted the sin.

In stead of saying God changes why not say that God also makes choices as to haw he will treat us in any given situation. I donot belive that my choices are known to God before I make them bur he does respond accorgind to His Charictor. The charictor of God never changes but He does make choices in response to a given cercumstance.

e4e--you hit the nail on the head. God chooses. He responds according to the situation. Even freewill that mankind functions under is God's choice--he could revoke this if it pleased Him to do so. Great Post!

 

[elected4ever]

I miss my spell checker in this new browser.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by elected4ever
I miss my spell checker in this new browser.

Y'all did just great getting the point across--I've never heard it stated any better. :thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

y thank ee crow pre-she-ate it.

 

[Crow]

I don't spell very well either. When I have something I REALLY want to be polished, I write it as a letter, spell check it there, then cut and past it to the post. It helps me--my English is atrocious--I spent part of my time overseas when I was a kid, and ended up with little quirks like spelling color as "colour" and a few other oddities.

 

[taoist]

As Knight, and others, have wondered why I post in only one thread at present, I thought I'd toss in a post here with a general comment. I understand this is predominantly a fundamentalist christian board, so the tendency to look at the death penalty through biblical interpretation is natural. But this restricts the debate to a theoretical death penalty, not the actual death penalty with which we're familiar.

In peace.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by taoist
As Knight, and others, have wondered why I post in only one thread at present, I thought I'd toss in a post here with a general comment. I understand this is predominantly a fundamentalist christian board, so the tendency to look at the death penalty through biblical interpretation is natural. But this restricts the debate to a theoretical death penalty, not the actual death penalty with which we're familiar.

In peace.

Actually, any views are valid to air here. I don't just see this from a theological viewpoint either, that is just the viewpoint the thread is taking right now. I could write you a book about how keeping mobs of prisoners alive for life sucks the resources out of our economy, how prison is a training ground for turning better educated criminals out to prey on society, etc. This is a huge multi-faceted issue.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
Half quoting your opponents reply and pretending you have won is not a tactic worthy of you, Freak. You skipped over the "God hates many things" part.

Do you know I skipped over the part that "God hates many things"?????? It's because you're attempting to deflect. God is love. That is His nature. It is not hate.

You should be rejoicing that you are only arguing with me, and not someone who can really debate.

I have traveled all over the world lecturing and debating. I think I hold my own.

I argee to the point that is people's freewill choices that send them to Hell.

Yes, people send themselves to hell for rejecting Christ. For the Bible says: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley
OK, I will retract my statement that Freak thinks we are robots.

Thank you. :thumb: Because I do not believe we are robots.

 

[taoist]

Indeed it is, Crow, and you'll have read part of what encompasses my own opinion. If anyone would like to see my views in perspective, get ready to subscribe online to the Chicago Tribune, which did an in-depth analysis of the mechanics of the death penalty in Illinois after the scandalous exoneration of twelve innocent men forced a moratorium.

Trial and Error

The Trib is generally known for both Pulitzer-prize-winning investigative series and a Republican editorial slant.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
Do you know I skipped over the part that "God hates many things"?????? It's because you're attempting to deflect. God is love. That is His nature. It is not hate.

I have traveled all over the world lecturing and debating. I think I hold my own.

Then why do you feel the need to half-quote people's statements, ending their actual sentences halfway to make it seem as if they agreed with you? You actually hold your own with those techniques? That is difficult to believe.

Yes, people send themselves to hell for rejecting Christ. For the Bible says: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

OK, Freak, what is it they do that condemns them? If Christ rescues from sin, how is he doing this if there is no law to condemn our actions as sinful? Christians are saved from the law, so this is not what I am addressing. I am talking about unbelievers here--what condemns their actions and makes those actions sin, or do you believe that unbelievers are unable to sin because there is no law?

 

[taoist]

Whoops, sorry, that's another related series. There have been several. Here's the one I actually wanted to link.

Failure of the Death Penalty in Illinois

 

[taoist]

For those who'd prefer not to spend the time, here are summaries of the five parts of the series.

Part 1: Death Row justice derailed

November 14, 1999._ Capital punishment in Illinois is a system so riddled with faulty evidence, unscrupulous trial tactics and legal incompetence that justice has been forsaken, a Tribune investigation has found.

I'd been following the efforts of the journalism class at Northwestern for quite some time when this series was presented. It is all but certain that without their help, innocent men would have been put to death.

Part 2: Inept defenses cloud verdict

November 15, 1999._ Bernon Howery needed a lawyer to save his life. Charged with setting a fire in Kankakee that killed four children, including three of his own, he turned to Earl Washington.

The basic thrust of this piece is that there is no mechanism for insuring that death penalty cases are defended by men capable of forcing the state to present valid evidence.

Part 3: The jailhouse informant

November 16, 1999._ His criminal record dates to 1978 and includes more than a dozen convictions. He has been in the penitentiary four times and is wanted in four states. His parole officer once called him "a menace to society." A federal prosecutor wrote he was "a pathological liar . . . not worthy of this court's trust."

Paying for perjured testimony with reduced sentences does not reflect well on our society.

Part 4: A tortured path to Death Row

November 17, 1999._ Forty-three hours after Stanley Howard was arrested, Chicago police detectives got the evidence that would help them send Howard to Death Row: a confession.

Presently living in Florida is a retired former Chicago police officer, Commander Burge, whose use of physical torture to extract false confessions has caused literally hundreds of trial verdicts to be set aside.

Part 5: Convicted by a hair

November 18, 1999._ In her opening words to the newly seated jury, Jefferson County State's Atty. Kathleen Alling described how one of the most brutal and confounding murders in local history finally gave way to the wonders of science.

Since defrocked, Ms. Alling's false testimony concluding guilt by virtue of lab work never done resulted in many death sentences in Illinois.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
You actually hold your own with those techniques? That is difficult to believe.

Been in ministry for nearly 20 years speaking to hundreds of groups, churches, public meetings, colleges, etc...I have no trouble speaking before people and defending the truth.

OK, Freak, what is it they do that condemns them?

Their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They condemn themselves.

 

[brother Willi]

In order to keep my car on the road, and from crashing
I turn the wheel to the right to turn right.
Then turn the wheel left to turn left.
Hit the brakes to slow or stop.
Hit the gas to go.

Have I changed?
Have I done what was needed?

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak

Their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They condemn themselves.

Do the unsaved commit sins, Freak? I know that they reject Christ--that's not a point of contention between us. I am asking do the unsaved commit sins? Because if they do, some God created law is being broken for them to be sinning.