REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

[Freak]

Crow, for the sake of those reading this let's go through this step by step--

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter.

Not of the letter, Paul tells us. The Letter was the Old Covenant.

but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Letter (the Old Covenant) kills. But the Spirit--the New brings life.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters.

Crow, when did this occur? What is the Letters symbolic of--the Old or New?

on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Righteousnes through the LAW as revealed in the Old? Nope! But through the NEW!!!

For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

Who's glory has fully been revealed and under what covenant?

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
The Old Covenant has been perfectly fulfilled in Christ, Crow, and done away with. God's law is still binding on the believer in the New Covenant era, but God’s righteous standards are contained in the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses:

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (1 Corinthians 9:20-21)

What was the law of Christ, Crow?

The law of the OT. Grace did not save Christians from condemnation by the law until His sacrifice was made. Non-Christians still stand condemned.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
The law of the OT. Grace did not save Christians from condemnation by the law until His sacrifice was made. Non-Christians still stand condemned.

So, you agree with my assertion that the New Covenant brings life, in light of this Scripture:

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
Still can't comprehend that rebuttal, eh Freak?

No, because it doesn't make any sense. We live under a better Covenant and a Covenant that gives life. So, get with the program, my friend.

 

[Freak]

The Old Covenant has been perfectly fulfilled in Christ, Crow, and done away with. God's law is still binding on the believer in the New Covenant era, but God’s righteous standards are contained in the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses:

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (1 Corinthians 9:20-21)

What was the law of Christ, Crow?

 

[Freak]

Crow---

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. (Galatians 4:4-7)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:10-14)

Note the bold part, Crow.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
Crow, for the sake of those reading this let's go through this step by step--

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter.

Not of the letter, Paul tells us. The Letter was the Old Covenant.

but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Letter (the Old Covenant) kills. But the Spirit--the New brings life.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters.

Crow, when did this occur? What is the Letters symbolic of--the Old or New?

on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Righteousnes through the LAW as revealed in the Old? Nope! But through the NEW!!!

For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

Who's glory has fully been revealed and under what covenant?

Ok Freak. Here goes--

Yes, we as Christians are under the New Covenant. We do not receive rightenous under the Law--we are saved by Christ. However, some people still go to hell. Why? Because they reject Christ, and therefor are condemned to the penalty of their sins. What condemns a person? Law.

Yes, the symbolic law was once glorious, and is not now. Now it only serves to condemn. It remains as a deathtrap for the wicked. It truely is a ministry of death. It still exists, and still sends people to hell. There would be not need to have Christ save us from our sins if we were not sinning because there was not law, and therefore no sin. Law, such as "Do not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" plus free will is what makes sin possible.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
To prevent a crime epidemic. See Ecc. 8:11

I think the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ does a better job, for it transforms the heart of men.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
Crow says:



Every kid in the world would have been put to death then.

Was every kid in Israel killed when God gave them this law?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
What would you recommend we do to those who assault people?

Here's what God recommends:

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exodus 21:23-25

If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. Deuteronomy 25:1-3

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
Crow---

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. (Galatians 4:4-7)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:10-14)

Note the bold part, Crow.

I note the bold part, Freak. If you are counting on the law to save you, you are under a curse. But if you are doing things under the law for the purpose of maintaining law and order, this does not make the law a curse, any more than if you circumcise your kid because you believe this to be a good medical practice.

God gave us an excellent system for administering justice. He told us how to deal with murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. If I keep this system because I believe it will lead to salvation, then I am indeed cursed, because this separates me from the truth that my salvation is only through the Grace of God, through Christ. If I keep this crimimal justice system God gave us because God is far brighter than I am and it works and God said to use this system, and I respect God's wishes, that does not mean I believe that my salvation rides on it.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
A better way has been brought to us through the New Covenant.

Freak, you've said you support sentencing murderers to prison/hard labor. Where the Bible verse where God endorses prison sentences?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
No, because it doesn't make any sense. We live under a better Covenant and a Covenant that gives life. So, get with the program, my friend.

Oh it does make sense. I suppose we could try this one more time.

David was a murderer and an adulterer. Both crimes were punishable by death, but God forgave David when he repented, and did not demand David be put to death.

Is it therefore reasonable to argue that God abolished the death penaly altogether when He forgave David? Is that reasonable? Yes or No?

(Smart money says Freak will be unable to answer this question with a Yes or a No.)

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
I think the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ does a better job, for it transforms the heart of men.

Not of those who reject Him, as most people do. Remember that "wide is the path that leads to destruction" stuff that Jesus spoke about?

True or False: The majority of people reject the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Crow
I note the bold part, Freak. If you are counting on the law to save you, you are under a curse. But if you are doing things under the law for the purpose of maintaining law and order, this does not make the law a curse, any more than if you circumcise your kid because you believe this to be a good medical practice.

God gave us an excellent system for administering justice. He told us how to deal with murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. If I keep this system because I believe it will lead to salvation, then I am indeed cursed, because this separates me from the truth that my salvation is only through the Grace of God, through Christ. If I keep this crimimal justice system God gave us because God is far brighter than I am and it works and God said to use this system, and I respect God's wishes, that does not mean I believe that my salvation rides on it.

Post of the Day!:first:

Thanks for teaching me a brilliant new point, Crow!:jump:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
I note the bold part, Freak.

Great.

But if you are doing things under the law for the purpose of maintaining law and order, this does not make the law a curse,

But Paul doesn't say that. Re-read it again.

God gave us an excellent system for administering justice.

Yes, He has. It's called redemptive justice.

If I keep this crimimal justice system God gave us because God is far brighter than I am and it works and God said to use this system, and I respect God's wishes, that does not mean I believe that my salvation rides on it.

THe Gospel message is a much better weapon to fight crime then bring the death penalty. It's been proven.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo

(Smart money says Freak will be unable to answer this question with a Yes or a No.)

Smart money tells me Turbo has not yet understood the program.

Next!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
Not of those who reject Him, as most people do. Remember that "wide is the path that leads to destruction" stuff that Jesus spoke about?

Does that stop you from believing the Gospel message is more powerful in transforming lives? The Gospel leads to redemptive justice and the death penalty, well...leads to death.

True or False: The majority of people reject the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

True and do you believe the Gospel message is a more powerful tool to transform someones heart?

 

[brother Willi]

WOW, I'm gone for a couple of hours, and I got 4 pages to read.
Buzzy board.

I'm still against the death penalty.
In the prodical son parable, why was the son not ordered stoned to death?

FORGIVENESS

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
Does that stop you from believing the Gospel message is more powerful in transforming lives?

The Gospel does transform the lives of those who accept it. But sadly, most reject the Gospel.

The Gospel leads to redemptive justice and the death penalty, well...leads to death.

When are you going to actually describe what this "redemptive justice" system entails, and provide Biblical support for it. You've stated in the past that murderers should be sentenced to jail/hard labor. Where in the Bible does God authorize such punishment?

True and do you believe the Gospel message is a more powerful tool to transform someones heart?

Yes, for those who accept it.

BTW, thank you for answering my True/False question directly.

But swift punishment is an effective deterrent, thereby preventing crimes from taking place because even most unbelievers are afraid of pain and death. (see Eccl 8:11, Rom 13:1-4)