REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart
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For the record . . . Freak was brave enough and humble enough to publicly change his position on his opposition to the death penalty for capital criminals.
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I was in the giving mood.koban said:
If by break down you mean cooperate then yes.Freak said:
Welcome back.
Still need to be persuaded on the death penalty
Still need to be persuaded on the death penalty
I have not been persuaded by Scripture for the death penalty, although, I would in my own opinion like to have the death penalty. But...my opinion doesn't count. I liked your examples of God forgiving David for adultery and murder during the OT law, and hence, His forgiveness for the adulteress in the NT. However, since He was slain before the foundations of the earth and it was and is by faith that we receive His new covenant, wouldn't David automatically fall under grace just as the harlot did...both were before His actual crucifiction? There were many OT elected people who did things they were not suppose to do but were covered by His grace through faith. Now, for other Scriptures where Jesus is recounting the OT law: Jesus came and fulfilled the Law because He was perfect and was able to fulfill every holy word of the law. He didn't get rid of it but instead showed the Jews where they were lacking in the Law i.e. anger = murder or in other words the spirit of the Law. He reminded them of the Law and then gave them a higher standard that the OT Law was requiring of them and they were unaware of. He showed them this to show them how impossible it was for them to uphold the Law and how much they needed His salvation. He never continued His conversation with them to say that they needed to institute the death penalty on those who were angry. Now for Romans 13 that verse doesn't talk about the death penalty and here's why. It talks about people who are breaking the law (evil doers) then it says not to be evil doers or the sword will be taken to them. Now are we to take the sword to every evil doer? Shouldn't that be interpreted as the sword of the law just like in another verse it says that the Word of God is the sword? I think so, otherwise, we will have to put everyone in America to death. As for Rev. 13:10, this isn't talking about the death penalty at all! This verse is in the middle of the Antichrist "ruling" the earth...he isn't in the business of fulfilling God's law. In fact, just the opposite...he will murder the saints of Christ. This verse is talking about the persecution of the saints either by being imprisoned or executed...the last sentence is the clue..."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Persecution is the patience and faith of the saints. Lastly, just because Paul acknowledges the Roman law concerning the death penalty doesn't mean he agreed with it. Paul wasn't political and wasn't in the business of trying to change the laws of the land. Many Roman laws made it lawful to kill Christians and also to abort babies. Now, the fact that Paul didn't go around telling the Romans they should change these laws doesn't mean he ever agreed that they were Biblical laws that should be instituted. Being political and trying to change laws, is mostly American. Even persecuted countries now days don't go around trying to change their laws...they go around teaching the Gospel. I'm still up to being persuaded for the death penalty though.
Still need to be persuaded on the death penalty
I have not been persuaded by Scripture for the death penalty, although, I would in my own opinion like to have the death penalty. But...my opinion doesn't count. I liked your examples of God forgiving David for adultery and murder during the OT law, and hence, His forgiveness for the adulteress in the NT. However, since He was slain before the foundations of the earth and it was and is by faith that we receive His new covenant, wouldn't David automatically fall under grace just as the harlot did...both were before His actual crucifiction? There were many OT elected people who did things they were not suppose to do but were covered by His grace through faith. Now, for other Scriptures where Jesus is recounting the OT law: Jesus came and fulfilled the Law because He was perfect and was able to fulfill every holy word of the law. He didn't get rid of it but instead showed the Jews where they were lacking in the Law i.e. anger = murder or in other words the spirit of the Law. He reminded them of the Law and then gave them a higher standard that the OT Law was requiring of them and they were unaware of. He showed them this to show them how impossible it was for them to uphold the Law and how much they needed His salvation. He never continued His conversation with them to say that they needed to institute the death penalty on those who were angry. Now for Romans 13 that verse doesn't talk about the death penalty and here's why. It talks about people who are breaking the law (evil doers) then it says not to be evil doers or the sword will be taken to them. Now are we to take the sword to every evil doer? Shouldn't that be interpreted as the sword of the law just like in another verse it says that the Word of God is the sword? I think so, otherwise, we will have to put everyone in America to death. As for Rev. 13:10, this isn't talking about the death penalty at all! This verse is in the middle of the Antichrist "ruling" the earth...he isn't in the business of fulfilling God's law. In fact, just the opposite...he will murder the saints of Christ. This verse is talking about the persecution of the saints either by being imprisoned or executed...the last sentence is the clue..."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Persecution is the patience and faith of the saints. Lastly, just because Paul acknowledges the Roman law concerning the death penalty doesn't mean he agreed with it. Paul wasn't political and wasn't in the business of trying to change the laws of the land. Many Roman laws made it lawful to kill Christians and also to abort babies. Now, the fact that Paul didn't go around telling the Romans they should change these laws doesn't mean he ever agreed that they were Biblical laws that should be instituted. Being political and trying to change laws, is mostly American. Even persecuted countries now days don't go around trying to change their laws...they go around teaching the Gospel. I'm still up to being persuaded for the death penalty though.
Slain before the foundation of the Earth? How so?sarah said:
And, the death penalty as a punishment for capital crimes has nothing to do with salvation. So Christ's death does nothing for the firgiveness of crimes. Only for the forgiveness of sins.