ECT Render to Caesar: Who did the coin belong to?

[elohiym]

My money is MINE!

Whose image is on the dollar in your pocket?

My kids are MINE!

They are God's offspring. See Acts 17:28-29.

My time is MINE!

Not even if you were debt free.

God has given those things to me to manage for HIM! My things are ultimately all His.

I agree with you. :cheers:

But, I can't apply that logic to a 3rd party. Caesars money is his.

As much as that dollar in your wallet belongs to George Washington.

I can't withhold from Caesar trying to rationalize that the money is really God's.

You don't have to. The Lord did it for you.

…24 When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt. 27 "However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."

He's clearly telling Peter that God's children do not owe taxes, that they are voluntary.

 

[elohiym]

Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this man misleading our nation and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, and saying that He Himself is Christ, a King."

 

[jamie]

Everything belongs to God, including the authorities.

Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. (Romans 13:7)​

 

[elohiym]

Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. (Romans 13:7)​

Why didn't Christians do that? They were persecuted for not doing those things, right?

Fast forward to the American Revolution. Who were the obedient Christians, the rebels or the loyalists? Does "my property" belong to the Crown or some Native American people?

Who is due what and why? Things get complicated when you try to use verses like that. Regarding taxes, we have the Lord's words to Peter that couldn't be more clear.

…24 When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt. 27 "However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."

How does that harmonize with Romans 13:7, Jamie?

 

[patrick jane]

As far as the Roman empire was concerned, everything belongs to the emperor, coins included. EOT

 

[elohiym]

For the record, this isn't a discussion about taxation; it's a discussion about Christology.

By all means, pay your taxes if they are due.

It's interesting that the Jews testing the Lord didn't believe Caesar was due taxes. Their question was merely a trap, implying that they believed Caesar was due taxes when they didn't. Hence, the Lord called them hypocrites. They knew there had been dozens of Jewish tax rebellions in the past and the majority had originated in Galilee. What better way to get the Lord crucified? It was one of the accusations they made against Him (Luke 23:2).

 

[elohiym]

As far as the Roman empire was concerned, everything belongs to the emperor, coins included. EOT

Forgive me for not accepting that claim without proof.

Consider also the point being made about how such an idea makes the command to not steal impossible, or rather you could only steal from the Emperor in that case.

EOT? :chuckle: Instead of everything belonging to God, you have everything belonging to Caesar. It only complicates the discussion.

 

[nikolai_42]

Seems like you are jumping to conclusions based on wrong assumptions. Start by answering the question:

Who did the coin in the Lord's hand belong to?

But your question is inappropriately (mis)leading. You have actually asked and answered your own question in the OP, which was part of the reason I brought up the eighth commandment. Implicit in the commandments is that wealth and possessions are the property of their rightful possessor. While possessions may legally change hands with death, sale, gift etc..., we do have legal rightful claims on property that is legally ours. Even from God's perspective. As Psalm 50:12 tells us, God would not ask us for something to eat if He were hungry - He would (rightfully) take food from the world. In another place, He says all souls are His (so He need not ask when He decides to take someone's life - it is not murder for Him to take life at any time). But that doesn't say anything about our rightful claim to things. So your OP question and your answer in the same ultimately leads to an absurdity.

But when we realize God has given us all things for our benefit and given us rules on how to manage those things, then the answer to whose coin did Jesus hold is very simple and doesn't cause any problems. It is his - as duly established authority over Rome - to manage that currency. It is by his authority that the coin was forged and so it is to him that taxes (however unfair they may be) are due. For my money (no pun intended), this verse captures it best :

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Romans 13:7

Not surprisingly, this is near the end of his bit on obeying earthly governments. But what I find most useful about this verse is that Paul is not just talking about money - he is talking about authority, respect, obedience etc... He is discussing the general order of things even more than the things themselves. I think it intimates in more than one place in scripture that we have order and peace only at God's good pleasure - not at the whims of some ruler. And part of keeping that peace is having an order of things. So when Jesus tells the disciples to render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar and to God the things which are God's, He is speaking far more about order than about ownership. He is speaking about recognizing Who all authority and dominion derives from. Rendering tribute to Caesar is, in the end, obeying God.

 

[nikolai_42]

…24 When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt. 27 "However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."

He's clearly telling Peter that God's children do not owe taxes, that they are voluntary.

No...He's telling the disciples that they are not bound (under the law of the land) to pay taxes. Just like there are laws set up here by which men can take advantage of lower taxes, so was Jesus saying that sons of the empire don't have to pay taxes. He's upholding the law of the land. The only reason to pay was to remove any cause for offense. It wasn't a binding command.

 

[theophilus]

Then how could Caesar own the coin?

Whoever provided the coin to Jesus was at best the steward of God's money, and in the world's terminology "owned" the coin. Would Caesar have claimed the money that man worked for belonged to the Emperor of Rome? If yes, would he have been correct?

Stewardship is the key.

It's God's money.
It's my money.
If I give you my money then it's your money but it's still God' money.

Caesar would have claimed the man and the money he worked for belonged to Rome.

All correct from a secular world-view (which is perishing).

 

[PureX]

Mark 12:17 And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.

Who did the coin belong to?

The Lord's point is that everything belongs to God.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Discuss.

I don't believe that was Jesus' point at all. If Jesus believed everything belonged to God, he would not have implied that everything does not belong to God, and that some things belong to the state (Caesar). He simply would have said that it all belongs to God.

What Jesus was implying (IMO) was that the values of the state (money and power), are not the values of the spirit, i.e., that which is valued by God. The statement is not about who "owns" what. It's about placing the values of the spirit above the values of the material world.

 

[ok doser]

Who did the coin belong to?

yo momma

Spoiler

View attachment 23560

 

[elohiym]

Who did the coin in the Lord's hand belong to?

But your question is inappropriately (mis)leading.

It's neither inappropriate nor misleading. The question is implicit in the Lord's statement. He's asking them to decide what belongs Caesar's and what belongs to God.

You have actually asked and answered your own question in the OP, which was part of the reason I brought up the eighth commandment. Implicit in the commandments is that wealth and possessions are the property of their rightful possessor.

Do you apply that logic to the other commandments? :think:

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God..."

Okay then ...

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

One down, nine more to go, right? :chuckle:

While possessions may legally change hands with death, sale, gift etc..., we do have legal rightful claims on property that is legally ours.

Man's perspective.

Even from God's perspective.

From God's perspective, everything belongs to His Son. Outside of Christ, you don't own squat. And God owns you, not just your stuff. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"

As Psalm 50:12 tells us, God would not ask us for something to eat if He were hungry - He would (rightfully) take food from the world. In another place, He says all souls are His (so He need not ask when He decides to take someone's life - it is not murder for Him to take life at any time).

I agree. If Jesus, who is God, took that coin He used in the demonstration and gave it to a widow instead of the person who loaned Him the coin, it would not be theft because the coin belonged to Jesus.

But that doesn't say anything about our rightful claim to things. So your OP question and your answer in the same ultimately leads to an absurdity.

The Bible tells us who owns everything: God. You are disputing that, it seems. The absurdity was in your response to the OP, which I've pointed out above. All I did was claim what is true: God owns every thing and every person.

Consider that two stewards of one master can steal from each other but they are only stealing from their master who owns them both. If they are thieves, their master would give them a rule to not steal. That rule doesn't necessarily imply that they own the property they have stewardship of.

But when we realize God has given us all things for our benefit and given us rules on how to manage those things, then the answer to whose coin did Jesus hold is very simple and doesn't cause any problems.

The owner of the coin was the Lord. The steward of the coin was the person who loaned the coin to the Lord for the demonstration. Caesar had no claim to the coin. He could tax people, but that didn't mean the coin was his property.

It is his - as duly established authority over Rome - to manage that currency.

If the coin belonged to Caesar, then whoever stole money in Rome only stole from the Emperor.

It is by his authority that the coin was forged and so it is to him that taxes (however unfair they may be) are due. For my money (no pun intended), this verse captures it best :

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Romans 13:7

I already addressed that in a previous post. Regardless, God still owns everything. Jesus is still God, and the coin still belonged to Him.

Rendering tribute to Caesar is, in the end, obeying God.

No, it's not. Christians died resisting the Emperors.

 

[elohiym]

No...He's telling the disciples that they are not bound (under the law of the land) to pay taxes. Just like there are laws set up here by which men can take advantage of lower taxes, so was Jesus saying that sons of the empire don't have to pay taxes. He's upholding the law of the land. The only reason to pay was to remove any cause for offense. It wasn't a binding command.

No, you don't understand the story for some reason. :idunno:

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Consider that two stewards of one master can steal from each other but they are only stealing from their master who owns them both. If they are thieves, their master would give them a rule to not steal. That rule doesn't necessarily imply that they own the property they have stewardship of.

Exactly. Bottom line.

 

[elohiym]

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him."

Not Caesar.