Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Nang]

Nowhere anywhere are we told to make creeds.

The very joy of the Christian church body of Jesus Christ, is to speak and validate what He has done in time and on the cross, according to the O.T. promises.

IOW's the creeds and confessions of the historical church are a statement of faith that demonstrates the unity of the true church of Jesus Christ.

It is odd that any Christian would consider this effort to form careful BIBLICAL unity between believers, as being wrong in any sense, or that any Christian would want to stay outside what the Holy Scriptures confess as being the true saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Nang]

That's another thing--he'll save anyone he wants to save. :thumb:

Yep. John 5:21

 

[serpentdove]

Nope.

No "trying" or "wooing" tactics employed by God Almighty.

Persuasions unnecessary . . .

God's will be done despite any ignorant, unbelieving, emotional, rebellious responses from His creatures.

Why ask? Why pray? Why wrestle with God? :idunno:

Jacob got his hip dislocated--he still wouldn't let go of God until he got the blessing. :listen: I think you let go too soon.

 

[serpentdove]

[He'll save anyone he wants to save. ] Yep. John 5:21

Does intercessory prayer mean a thing to you? Rom. 10:1–4

 

[Cross Reference]

Why ask? Why pray? Why wrestle with God? :idunno:

Jacob got his hip dislocated--he still wouldn't let go of God until he got the blessing. :listen: I think you let go too soon.

How does one let go of what he has no hold on and thought it to be a perversion to do so to start with?

 

[Nang]

Why ask? Why pray? Why wrestle with God? :idunno:

Jacob got his hip dislocated--he still wouldn't let go of God until he got the blessing. :listen: I think you let go too soon.

I see a big difference between a creature's intercessory prayers for loved ones, with the Creator of the universe, supposedly asking for a "wooing" of those same loved ones.

When I pray for others, I do so in full assurance that they will be saved by the grace of God, if He so sovereignly wills to gather them into His Kingdom.

It is His call . . not mine, nor theirs.

 

[serpentdove]

How does one let go of what he has no hold on?

Jacob Wrestles with God

Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that He could not defeat him, He struck Jacob’s hip socket as they wrestled and dislocated his hip. Then He said to Jacob, “Let Me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me.”

“What is your name?” the man asked.

“Jacob,” he replied.

“Your name will no longer be Jacob,” He said. “It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked Him, “Please tell me Your name.”

But He answered, “Why do you ask My name?” And He blessed him there.

Jacob then named the place Peniel, “For I have seen God face to face,” he said, “and I have been delivered.” The sun shone on him as he passed by Penuel—limping because of his hip. *That is why, to this day, the Israelites don’t eat the thigh muscle that is at the hip socket: because He struck Jacob’s hip socket at the thigh muscle (Ge 32:24–32).

 

[Cross Reference]

Jacob Wrestles with God

Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that He could not defeat him, He struck Jacob’s hip socket as they wrestled and dislocated his hip. Then He said to Jacob, “Let Me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me.”

“What is your name?” the man asked.

“Jacob,” he replied.

“Your name will no longer be Jacob,” He said. “It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked Him, “Please tell me Your name.”

But He answered, “Why do you ask My name?” And He blessed him there.

Jacob then named the place Peniel, “For I have seen God face to face,” he said, “and I have been delivered.” The sun shone on him as he passed by Penuel—limping because of his hip. *That is why, to this day, the Israelites don’t eat the thigh muscle that is at the hip socket: because He struck Jacob’s hip socket at the thigh muscle (Ge 32:24–32).

What is your point?

 

[Nang]

Jacob Wrestles with God

Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that He could not defeat him, He struck Jacob’s hip socket as they wrestled and dislocated his hip. Then He said to Jacob, “Let Me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me.”

“What is your name?” the man asked.

“Jacob,” he replied.

“Your name will no longer be Jacob,” He said. “It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked Him, “Please tell me Your name.”

But He answered, “Why do you ask My name?” And He blessed him there.

Jacob then named the place Peniel, “For I have seen God face to face,” he said, “and I have been delivered.” The sun shone on him as he passed by Penuel—limping because of his hip. *That is why, to this day, the Israelites don’t eat the thigh muscle that is at the hip socket: because He struck Jacob’s hip socket at the thigh muscle (Ge 32:24–32).

Not to nit-pick with you, but this was not an "intercessory prayer" on the part of Jacob. This was the event when Jacob was actually regenerated to know and place his faith in God.

 

[Eagles Wings]

I see a big difference between a creature's intercessory prayers for loved ones, with the Creator of the universe, supposedly "wooing" those same loved ones.

When I pray for others, I do so in full assurance that they will be saved by the grace of God, if He so sovereignly wills to gather them into His Kingdom.

It is His call . . not mine, nor theirs.

Well said.

 

[serpentdove]

"When I pray for others..."

Why? :smokie: God already knows who will be saved and who won't. :freak: You won't change his mind. Why bother to speak with him at all? :blabla: Ge 22:12

...if He so sovereignly wills to gather them into His Kingdom. It is His call . . not mine, nor theirs.

Good night son. If God wills for you to be saved, you will be saved. Otherwise, you'll burn in hell. Good luck with that. :freak:

 

[God's Truth]

Not to nit-pick with you, but this was not an "intercessory prayer" on the part of Jacob. This was the event when Jacob was actually regenerated to know and place his faith in God.

Was King David regenerated when he committed adultery and had someone murdered?


The Holy Spirit was NOT given to all believers until Jesus ascended back to heaven.

There were obeyers to God before and after that.

 

[Nang]

Why? :smokie: God already knows who will be saved and who won't. :freak: You won't change his mind. Why bother to speak with him at all? :blabla: Ge 22:12

God knows, but I do not. I will not change His mind, but I pray with acceptance and faith that He is wiser than I, so that if He withholds salvation from those I pray for, He has reason.

It shows a serious lack of faith for anyone to pray to God with the intention of "changing God's mind." God forbid! God knows best and knows all, and none of His creatures can claim such.

If anyone goes to hell, it is because God is just, wise, and good.

 

[God's Truth]

The very joy of the Christian church body of Jesus Christ, is to speak and validate what He has done in time and on the cross, according to the O.T. promises.

IOW's the creeds and confessions of the historical church are a statement of faith that demonstrates the unity of the true church of Jesus Christ.

It is odd that any Christian would consider this effort to form careful BIBLICAL unity between believers, as being wrong in any sense, or that any Christian would want to stay outside what the Holy Scriptures confess as being the true saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

NOWHERE ANYWHERE does God tell us to make creeds.

Creeds are not from God.

Creeds are symbolic of a person not willing to change and learn if wrong.

We are to grow in wisdom.

We are to add to our faith 'knowledge'.

Creeds have beliefs and explanations that remain, and are defended no matter if proven wrong.

 

[Nang]

Intercessory prayer is a privilege; not a platform.

Intercessory prayer issues forth from regenerated hearts, that are moved to care and love others, while submitting to the wise and sovereign will of God.

Amen means: "so be it."

We pray with our caring hearts, in our limited knowledge, and then leave the blessings of grace in the powerful hands of God.

Amen.

 

[nikolai_42]

One little poke dear friend . . . in your words bolded above . . .

As you state at the last, is salvation then ultimately dependant upon our faithfulness (one way or the other), or is our salvation a result of God's grace, ALONE?

There is a very subtle undercurrent of faith plus works in the Reformed camp these days, so every encouragement we offer as gospel, must clarify justification by faith alone.

Please forgive the formatting, Nang, as I am replying on a phone for the first time (ever).

The one thing I found with nearly any church I attended as I grew up (mostly mainstream evangelical) was a constant emphasis on soteriology. People would be saved umpyeen times before they were forty. In pressing on, one is not worried about saving themselves by their works, but proving their salvation by their good works. The tree being known by its fruit. So there is a strong sense that this faithfulness is required in stewards - those God entrusts something with. And He doesn't do that with those who aren't His. So my saying that we must be found faithful is a true statement (and biblical) but to the one it is intended, salvation is not the question - or else one would be working for one's salvation - which is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy.

The Reformed view of perseverance (as I understand it) views salvation more as a continuous process whereby the enduring to the end proves one's standing in Christ. So (it seems to me) that the distinction between working for salvation and working because one is saved becomes almost indefinable and could very easily bring about antinomianism just as much as works salvation. That's why it is vital to have the foundation in which one rests in Christ to provide so that he (or she) can work effectually. It is His work in and through us that I see as those good works. That's why the ones Jesus commends say "When did we...?" etc... They have done the works but they aren't properly their own - thus men glorify God when they see those works.

Hopefully that clarifies a little...

 

[Eagles Wings]

Why? :smokie: God already knows who will be saved and who won't. :freak: You won't change his mind. Why bother to speak with him at all? :blabla: Ge 22:12

Good night son. If God wills for you to be saved, you will be saved. Otherwise, you'll burn in hell. Good luck with that. :freak:

Would you like to hear what a Christian parent says to their children?

Follow me, as I follow Christ.

 

[Crucible]

Intercessory prayer doesn't seem to have any effect, even in the biblical accounts. You have Abraham and Moses praying for their people, but that was part of God's plan anyway. When the early church prayed for Peter, he was still nevertheless martyred.

Nothing shows that intercessory prayer works, only that God is immutable.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Please forgive the formatting, Nang, as I am replying on a phone for the first time (ever).

The one thing I found with nearly any church I attended as I grew up (mostly mainstream evangelical) was a constant emphasis on soteriology. People would be saved umpyeen times before they were forty. In pressing on, one is not worried about saving themselves by their works, but proving their salvation by their good works. The tree being known by its fruit. So there is a strong sense that this faithfulness is required in stewards - those God entrusts something with. And He doesn't do that with those who aren't His. So my saying that we must be found faithful is a true statement (and biblical) but to the one it is intended, salvation is not the question - or else one would be working for one's salvation - which is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy.

The Reformed view of perseverance (as I understand it) views salvation more as a continuous process whereby the enduring to the end proves one's standing in Christ. So (it seems to me) that the distinction between working for salvation and working because one is saved becomes almost indefinable and could very easily bring about antinomianism just as much as works salvation. That's why it is vital to have the foundation in which one rests in Christ to provide so that he (or she) can work effectually. It is His work in and through us that I see as those good works. That's why the ones Jesus commends say "When did we...?" etc... They have done the works but they aren't properly their own - thus men glorify God when they see those works.

Hopefully that clarifies a little...

This helps me clarify that in both our justification and sanctification, God gives us all we need.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)

...for it is God...to will and to do of His good pleasure...

 

[intojoy]

Intercessory prayer is a privilege; not a platform.

Intercessory prayer issues forth from regenerated hearts, that are moved to care and love others, while submitting to the wise and sovereign will of God.

Amen means: "so be it."

We pray with our caring hearts, in our limited knowledge, and then leave the blessings of grace in the powerful hands of God.

Amen.

Sounds right.
Here's a better definition

God has ordained the end but in the final outcomes He has incorporated the prayers of the saints as part of the means.


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