Real Science Friday: What technologies needed Darwin or an old earth?

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
The OP is concerned with the issue of "technologies" although many of the people and concepts mentioned are science, not technology (which is the application of science).

Does one have to know the age of the Earth to know how an NMR machine works? No. But the NMR machine works on principles that demonstrate the Earth must be very old. Speed of light is one of the easiest ways to show this; c is a constant that is found in many other physical constants, and the existence of light coming from supernovae billions of light years away shows that the universe is very old.

Likewise, one doesn't have to know how natural selection works to follow antibiotic protocols, but one does have to understand how it works to write the protocols. Many doctors just follow the directions, perhaps not even knowing technically why they work.

This seems like a rather counter-productive topic for creationists. But it seems they are targeting people who don't know much about science.
 

some other dude

New member
(Sot lashes out again)

Yes, I lashed out to see if you could explain why you repeatedly refer to yourself in the third person as "the evil Barbarian"?

I'm just wondering how you manage to frequently test the speed of light, when you have no idea what constants are involved with it.

Yes, you keep making that statement. I don't know why. I'm quite familiar with the constants that are involved with estimating the speed of light.

You seem rather unwilling to tell us; you get angry and abusive when I ask. I think I know why.

Well, I'm not angry, and I don't think I've been abusive but I guess that's your call.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
So, as you see, the age of the Earth depends on so many established scientific principles, like the constants Sot posted, that you can't have a young Earth, without overturning almost all of physics.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Last edited:

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No, there isn't any contradictory evidence,
Here’s two:

The planets and their satellites turn out to be very active the more we look at them. It contradicts statements that say the solar system is old.

Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable. That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.

Only a commitment to your OE religion would preclude you from realizing this is contradictory evidence.

only the silly stories made up by AiG and the like. And if there were it wouldn't be the laypeople "picking and choosing" it would be people actually in the fields of study in question.
This is nothing more than a strawman, appeal to authority, and popularity making right. Keep using those tactics, because it’s all you’ve really got.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Thats a nice story, but there are real live scientists (with business cards and everything) who disagree with you based on evidence in their field. There's a website that lists some of them somewhere. But everytime someone brings up these people, the evolutionist will find somone like a dentist on the list and poo-poo it. You'll ignore the actual scientists in their field so you can continue making this dishonest claim. I'm reading a book right now where 50 of them explain their position on why they are YEC's. It'll mean more to you if you look it up on your own.
And your point is what exactly? There are "card carrying" historians that reject the holocaust happened. Do you think that makes holocaust denial a reasonable position?

In fact I have seen statistics saying there are more historians the deny the holocaust than there are scientists that deny evolution/old earth. I said MAINSTREAM science in my original quote. There is a reason these things are MAINSTREAM. There will always be a few crackpots willing to tell you that aliens built the pyramids or the holocaust didn't happen. Just because said "experts" exist doesn't mean you should believe them!

You may think of yourself as the scientific bourgeoisie, but pardon us for not bowing to your every word as if its gospel.
We're not talking about MY word, silly. We're talking about the work of thousands of scientists over centuries now, both believers and non-believers.

If you tell me a rediculous story about all life on earth coming from a common ancestor, you'll need to show me outstanding proof.
The idea of someone trying to wipe out an entire race of people is pretty ridiculous too isn't it? There is plenty of evidence for evolution if you would like to talk about it in detail.

I'm not talking about salamanders that are still salamanders and the other crap that gets drug out as proof. Yes, I'm incredulous, but an antonym for that is gullible.
That's what the anti-vaxxers and the other denialists say too. Why do you think your denialism is more rational than theirs?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Here’s two:

The planets and their satellites turn out to be very active the more we look at them. It contradicts statements that say the solar system is old.
I don't know what your definition of "active" is. Nor do I see that necessarily contradicts an old universe.

Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable. That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.
No it isn't. Evolution isn't only driven by natural selection and we've known that for a long time. Most nucleotide changes have no effect at all. So what?

Only a commitment to your OE religion would preclude you from realizing this is contradictory evidence.
Could you make a more ridiculous statement? You don't understand what the basis of these ideas are if you think what you've posted is "contradictory".

This is nothing more than a strawman, appeal to authority, and popularity making right. Keep using those tactics, because it’s all you’ve really got.
We're talking about *experts* and evidence. But people like you, apparently don't believe there is such a thing as expert opinion. And you love to ignore the mountain of evidence to scrape at a few things that *you* think are contradictory. Taking lessons from Enyart much? Ever heard of cherry picking?
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Alate one points out:
No, there isn't any contradictory evidence,

Here’s two:

The planets and their satellites turn out to be very active the more we look at them. It contradicts statements that say the solar system is old.

The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and it's active. Try again.

Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable.

Which is consistent with the Modern Synthesis, which combined Darwinian theory and Genetics.

That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.

C'mon, Yorzhik. You know better. The mutation rate is pretty close to optimal for the balance between neutral mutations and those open to selection. If there were fewer neutral ones, it would be harmful to selection, because there would be too many changes in a short time, and survival would be a chancier thing.

How about do a little reading in population genetics and find out why?

Only a commitment to your OE religion would preclude you from realizing this is contradictory evidence.

Surprise.

If you still want to assert those ideas, show us your numbers and evidence for them. And then we'll see how that stands up to reality.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I don't know what your definition of "active" is.
Take a guess. If you are honest I'll bet your first one will be correct.

Nor do I see that necessarily contradicts an old universe.
Active things use energy to be active. That energy should have run out within the time frame claimed for the solar system. The fact that a smart person like you couldn't figure out such a simple concept betrays your bias.

Yorzhik said:
Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable. That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.
No it isn't. Evolution isn't only driven by natural selection and we've known that for a long time. Most nucleotide changes have no effect at all. So what?
If the main mechanism for evolution is claimed to be mutation plus NS, but most mutations are not subject to NS, then something else is the main mechanism. Simple logic should have told you that. But again, your bias overrides logic.

Could you make a more ridiculous statement? You don't understand what the basis of these ideas are if you think what you've posted is "contradictory".
I've just shown the very simple logic that makes my statements correct. At least you are wise enough to go back to fallacious debate tactics instead of having a conversation using reason.

We're talking about *experts* and evidence.
Use more asterisks. Your appeal to authority will be even *more* convincing.

But people like you, apparently don't believe there is such a thing as expert opinion.
Sure I do. But when experts disagree, as I've just shown, we have to weigh the evidence.

And you love to ignore the mountain of evidence to scrape at a few things that *you* think are contradictory. Taking lessons from Enyart much? Ever heard of cherry picking?
All you have for evidence is radiometric dating (which can't give us a consistent answer), starlight (which is as big a problem for you as for me), and comparative lists (that cherry pick the weighting factors). It isn't much and it has big weaknesses to boot. It's our side that has the greater evidence.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and it's active. Try again.
The earth is only 4.5 billion years old if you first assume an old earth. The evidence from earth, and across the solar system, shows activity that should have run out within 4.5 billion years.

Yorzhik said:
Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable.
Which is consistent with the Modern Synthesis, which combined Darwinian theory and Genetics.
So what is the main mechanism that drives evolution according to the Modern Synthesis? If it isn't mutation plus NS, then what is it?

Yorzhik said:
That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.
C'mon, Yorzhik. You know better. The mutation rate is pretty close to optimal for the balance between neutral mutations and those open to selection. If there were fewer neutral ones, it would be harmful to selection, because there would be too many changes in a short time, and survival would be a chancier thing.
What is the average number of mutations for a new trait? Alate says 7 is a good number to work with.

If you still want to assert those ideas, show us your numbers and evidence for them. And then we'll see how that stands up to reality.
We can use your numbers. What is the average number of mutations for a new trait? Alate says 7 is a good number to work with.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Active things use energy to be active. That energy should have run out within the time frame claimed for the solar system. The fact that a smart person like you couldn't figure out such a simple concept betrays your bias.
As pertaining to showing that the solar system is young (or old), I would like something a bit more specific about what Yorzhik means by “active”. I don’t think it is very productive for him to have in mind what he means by that, but make this exchange into a game to see if we can guess what he means. If he has credible and defensible ideas on it, put them forth in a direct and clear manner.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Barbarian observes:
The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and it's active. Try again.

The earth is only 4.5 billion years old if you first assume an old earth.

Nice try. The physicists were somewhat taken aback when they discovered how old it was.

The evidence from earth, and across the solar system, shows activity that should have run out within 4.5 billion years.

But you don't have any evidence for that assumption. No surprise there.

Most nucleotide changes are non-selectable.

Barbarian observes:
Which is consistent with the Modern Synthesis, which combined Darwinian theory and Genetics.

So what is the main mechanism that drives evolution according to the Modern Synthesis?

Mutation and natural selection on the non-neutral ones. Most are neutral, but there are lots of non-neutral ones every generation in a population.

That is contradictory to evolution via mutation and NS.

Barbarian observes:
C'mon, Yorzhik. You know better. The mutation rate is pretty close to optimal for the balance between neutral mutations and those open to selection. If there were fewer neutral ones, it would be harmful to selection, because there would be too many changes in a short time, and survival would be a chancier thing.

What is the average number of mutations for a new trait? Alate says 7 is a good number to work with.

Sometimes, it's one. Sometimes, it's just a recombination of existing alleles from mutations many generations old.

Barbarian suggests:
If you still want to assert those ideas, show us your numbers and evidence for them. And then we'll see how that stands up to reality.

We can use your numbers. What is the average number of mutations for a new trait? Alate says 7 is a good number to work with.

O.K. Just so we don't waste time, don't try the "they all have to appear in the same generation in the same individual" scam, OK?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Take a guess. If you are honest I'll bet your first one will be correct.

Active things use energy to be active. That energy should have run out within the time frame claimed for the solar system.
Why do you think this is the case? Why do virtually all scientists disagree with you?

Have you ever thought that gravitation is a force that does not stop and provides continuous energy for "active systems"?

The fact that a smart person like you couldn't figure out such a simple concept betrays your bias.
It isn't about figuring out a simple concept it's about figuring out what you mean, which is not necessarily clear at all. I don't expect your viewpoint to be rational, since past experience hasn't shown that you always produce logical statements and ideas.

If the main mechanism for evolution is claimed to be mutation plus NS, but most mutations are not subject to NS, then something else is the main mechanism. Simple logic should have told you that. But again, your bias overrides logic.
Sorry, you just posted a major logic fail. Most mutations don't provide material for evolution at all. That has been well understood for a long time. Natural selection isn't about "most" mutations, it's about *selectable* mutations. The fact that many aren't is totally irrelavent. The point of selection is it SELECTS from among many. But that obvious point apparently escaped you.

Sure I do. But when experts disagree, as I've just shown, we have to weigh the evidence.
We can do that. But you're not actually weighing evidence. You're cherry picking.

All you have for evidence is radiometric dating (which can't give us a consistent answer), starlight (which is as big a problem for you as for me),
I'm not accepting your assertions that any of these are "problematic" since I haven't seen any scientists complaining about how horrible radiometric dating is or how problematic starlight is.

and comparative lists (that cherry pick the weighting factors). It isn't much and it has big weaknesses to boot. It's our side that has the greater evidence.
Organisms fall into natural groupings which are a nested hierarchy. There is no reason for this to happen aside from evolution. Would you like to discuss some of the clear nested hierarchies? Do you agree that humans are primates?

You're also missing another huge area of evidence that was available to Darwin, and that is biogeography.

Perhaps you could explain to me how orchids, the family plants with the largest number of species, which has seeds the size of dust which must be invaded by a particular species of fungi within a few weeks after being shed to germinate, which must also be pollinated by particular species of insects which have incredibly intricate relationships with them. Relationships that include mimicking the signals for a female wasp or fly or bee to fool males into mating with them which transfers their pollen. Or orchids that produce perfume that a particular species of male bees must use to attract females of their species. Here's a more detailed description and more species

How did they manage to survive a worldwide flood which was supposedly so amazingly catastrophic as to move continents, but no plants are named as being taken on the ark other than food?

And orchids are just the beginning of the story. Very few plants and seeds can survive being drowned in saltwater for a year. Many seeds must germinate within a few months to survive. Some can survive long periods, but they are the exception rather than the rule. If there had been a catastrophic worldwide flood only a few thousand years ago, we should have much lower plant diversity than we have.
 
Last edited:

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
Take a guess. If you are honest I'll bet your first one will be correct.

Active things use energy to be active. That energy should have run out within the time frame claimed for the solar system.

Alate one writes:
Why do you think this is the case? Why do virtually all scientists disagree with you?

Have you ever thought that gravitation is a force that does not stop and provides continuous energy for "active systems"?


Maybe he thinks Newton was an "evolutionist."
 

Jukia

New member
I forget, is Yorzhik a YECer or is he picking some other age of the earth just less than 4.5+/- billion?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
And? We know that CNN has an objective and is not a "medium" of information.

Maybe you *think* that but the rest of us do not "know" that. In any case, perceived bias on your part in a news organization has little to do with expert opinion that is based on evidence.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
And your point is what exactly? There are "card carrying" historians that reject the holocaust happened. Do you think that makes holocaust denial a reasonable position?

In fact I have seen statistics saying there are more historians the deny the holocaust than there are scientists that deny evolution/old earth. I said MAINSTREAM science in my original quote. There is a reason these things are MAINSTREAM. There will always be a few crackpots willing to tell you that aliens built the pyramids or the holocaust didn't happen. Just because said "experts" exist doesn't mean you should believe them!

We're not talking about MY word, silly. We're talking about the work of thousands of scientists over centuries now, both believers and non-believers.

The idea of someone trying to wipe out an entire race of people is pretty ridiculous too isn't it? There is plenty of evidence for evolution if you would like to talk about it in detail.

That's what the anti-vaxxers and the other denialists say too. Why do you think your denialism is more rational than theirs?
Ok Ok, its ok for MAINSTREAM scientists to pick and choose what they believe, but not for laypeople or YEC scientists because they dont do so based on EVIDENCE . . . and you know this becasue you are a mind reader. Even though they tell you its based on evidence, you know better, because you trust your mentalist abilities more than what people tell you. Do you think anyone who disagrees with you is generally dishonest? Or is it just in science where no one can disagree with you? I'm not sure what your house is like, but you should have a throne (no not that kind, the kind kings and queens sit in lol).

PS, what number am I thinking of right now? between 1 and 100.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Ok Ok, its ok for MAINSTREAM scientists to pick and choose what they believe,

You honestly think that's what happens? If so, you have no idea of the way it works. Pick up a scientific journal and read it. It will disabuse you of that belief.

but not for laypeople or YEC scientists because they dont do so based on EVIDENCE . . .

Oh, this is about scientists preferring evidence. Guilty. That's how it works. If the evidence indicates, the theory is changed or discarded.

It might seem to be a problem for you, but it had the virtue of actually working.

and you know this becasue you are a mind reader. Even though they tell you its based on evidence, you know better, because you trust your mentalist abilities more than what people tell you.

I notice that (for example) when I asked Yorzhik for some substantiation of his belief, he declined to do it. When someone denies the existence of transitionals, and I challenge them to show us one case where evolutionary lines between major groups lack them, no one dares to mention even one. That's a telling admission.

Do you think anyone who disagrees with you is generally dishonest?

No, but of course, we've shown you a lot of dishonesty from creationist leaders. Not so much from their followers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top