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Clete

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I did address this. The standard creationist claim is "look people who do science believe in creationism, therefore creationism is scientific." It does not follow.
In the same way (exactly the same way), it does not follow that because some creationists have been unscientific therefore creationism is unscientific, which is PRECISELY the argument that you made and which what you incorrectly claim was an appeal to authority refutes. I love it when people make self refuting arguments!

The fact that some creationists *may* in some part of their work utilize the scientific method doesn't mean creationism is scientific or that creationists use the scientific method - in promoting creationism.

The fact that some evolutionists *may* in some part of their work utilize the scientific method doesn't mean evolutionism is scientific or that evolutionists use the scientific method - in promoting evolutionism.

And he just did the same thing again, posting lists of scientists.
Which as effectively refutes your argument as it did the first time.

Um, no. Creationism by definition is unscientific.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

In fact, if you want to be taken seriously, you should avoid saying such things. I mean, that's just stupidity.

It appeals to the supernatural, generally makes itself untestable, is unfalsifiable (not tentative), not consistent -it isn't repeated.
This is all over generalized and none of it is actually true at all in the way you mean it, but that's a different debate.

Even if all this were the case (just for the sake of argument), the exact same thing can be said of most of modern cosmology, physics and even evolution itself. You can't see it because your evolutionary paradigm won't allow you to see it. Of course, to that you'd likely respond that my creationist paradigm won't permit me to see reality either, which is a valid enough point to make actually. My response would be, "By what objective standard have you tested the validity of your paradigm?".

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Jose Fly

New member
Creationism is unscientific for one simple reason. Its foundational claim is "God did it", and as everyone should agree, God is not subject to testing or any sort of investigation.

So in order for creationism to be scientific, it must either 1) drop God, or 2) provide a means by which God can be scientifically investigated.

Barring that, creationism cannot be scientific.
 

Jose Fly

New member
We keep asking for this evidence and all we get is squat

Or you get 6days saying the evidence supports creationism better than evolution, and to support his claim posts examples of populations evolving into new species. IOW...

Does the data better support creationism or evolution?

Here are some examples of populations evolving into new species.

Well that settles it. Observed evolution supports creationism better than evolution!​

This is why creationists are laughed at. :chuckle:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
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Creationism is unscientific for one simple reason. Its foundational claim is "God did it", and as everyone should agree, God is not subject to testing or any sort of investigation.
Not so.

People used to claim that God threw every bolt of lightning. That has been proven not to be the case.

The fact is that either God did create the universe or He did not. That's reality. To suggest that there can be no scientific evidence one way or the other is just your own wishful thinking.

So in order for creationism to be scientific, it must either 1) drop God, or 2) provide a means by which God can be scientifically investigated.

Barring that, creationism cannot be scientific.
Sloppy thinking leads to irreversible stupidity.

God either exists or He does not. That's reality. There is no third option.
Science (real science) is the objective investigation of reality.
If God exists then it is your a-prior atheistic approach that is unscientific. By the same token, if He does not exist then it is our approach that is unscientific.

The question then becomes, "Does God exist?".
You say, "No" or and at least presume that He does not exist before you make your first step toward answering any question. I say that by making such a presumption, you've contradicted yourself before the first syllable of your argument makes it to your lips!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Evolutionism is unscientific for one simple reason. Its foundational claim is "evolution did it", and as everyone should agree, evolution is not subject to testing or any sort of investigation.

So in order for evolutionism to be scientific, it must either 1) drop evolution, or 2) provide a means by which evolution can be scientifically investigated.

Barring that, evolutionism cannot be scientific.
 

TracerBullet

New member
I've not read the entire thread and so forgive me if this has already been addressed but I had to just point out that when you make a claim such as, "Creationist do not use the scientific method." and then someone responds to that claim by presenting counter examples of creationists who undeniably do use the scientific method, that's not at all what making an appeal to authority is.

It is correct to say that creationists do not use the scientific method.
Here is a very simplified breakdown of the scientific method:

Make observations.
Conduct background research.
Formulate a question.
Propose a hypothesis to answer that question.
Design and perform an experiment to test the hypothesis.
Analyze data
Accept or reject the hypothesis
Propose and test or a new hypothesis if needed
Communicate results

Creationists don't begin with observation, they begin with a specific conclusion and work to fulfill that conclusion.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
And you said creationism couldn't be tested! :rolleyes:

If a particular model is proposed - say the earth is 6000 years old, to some degree it can. Problem is creationism, being supernatural, can use the excuse "God just did it that way" or "God just made it look like the earth is old". None of these ideas actually add anything to our knowledge, they're simply excuses.

So testing creationism is rather like nailing jello to the wall. Evidence for this is in this very thread since the supposed "creation model" differs from person to person.

Whereas evolution has consistent predictions from scientists to scientist.

The other problem is most creationists pretend that if evolution were somehow falsified, creationism would automatically be right. This simply doesn't work in science. If an idea is falsified, any new idea needs positive evidence to support it. Creationism really doesn't have that.
 

Jose Fly

New member
People used to claim that God threw every bolt of lightning. That has been proven not to be the case.

It has? How?

The fact is that either God did create the universe or He did not. That's reality. To suggest that there can be no scientific evidence one way or the other is just your own wishful thinking.

No, it's just a necessary fact. If you can't provide a means by which God can be investigated, then creationism cannot be scientific.

Science (real science) is the objective investigation of reality.
If God exists then it is your a-prior atheistic approach that is unscientific. By the same token, if He does not exist then it is our approach that is unscientific.

Nope. Again, if you cannot provide a means by which God can be investigated, how can creationism be scientific? Or do you think science should include untestable, uninvestigable claims?

The question then becomes, "Does God exist?".
You say, "No" or and at least presume that He does not exist before you make your first step toward answering any question. I say that by making such a presumption, you've contradicted yourself before the first syllable of your argument makes it to your lips

Whether I believe God exists or not is irrelevant to the central question. Can you provide a means by which God can be scientifically investigated?

And you said creationism couldn't be tested!

You kinda missed the point on that one. Try again.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Evolutionism is unscientific for one simple reason. Its foundational claim is "evolution did it", and as everyone should agree, evolution is not subject to testing or any sort of investigation.

So in order for evolutionism to be scientific, it must either 1) drop evolution, or 2) provide a means by which evolution can be scientifically investigated.

Barring that, evolutionism cannot be scientific.

6days proved you wrong by posting examples of populations evolving into new species.
 

Jose Fly

New member
If a particular model is proposed - say the earth is 6000 years old, to some degree it can. Problem is creationism, being supernatural, can use the excuse "God just did it that way" or "God just made it look like the earth is old". None of these ideas actually add anything to our knowledge, they're simply excuses.

Yes, that's another reason creationism is not scientific. God, by definition, can do absolutely anything imaginable, including creating everything one way, but making it entirely look like it was created a different way.

So God could have created everything last Thursday and just created a false history and memories to make everything seem older. There'd be no way to tell at all that God actually created everything last Thursday.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
It is correct to say that creationists do not use the scientific method.


Creationists don't begin with observation, they begin with a specific conclusion and work to fulfill that conclusion.

Saying it doesn't make it so.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Yes, that's another reason creationism is not scientific. God, by definition, can do absolutely anything imaginable, including creating everything one way, but making it entirely look like it was created a different way.

So God could have created everything last Thursday and just created a false history and memories to make everything seem older. There'd be no way to tell at all that God actually created everything last Thursday.
This an epistemological question that the atheist can't answer at all!
 

Clete

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It has? How?
Scientifically

No, it's just a necessary fact. If you can't provide a means by which God can be investigated, then creationism cannot be scientific.
You provided a means yourself.

Nope. Again, if you cannot provide a means by which God can be investigated, how can creationism be scientific? Or do you think science should include untestable, uninvestigable claims?
You (the atheist) has far more and more important untestable claims that the Christian. Even your claim that your method of testing is valid cannot be substantiated without begging the question.

Whether I believe God exists or not is irrelevant to the central question. Can you provide a means by which God can be scientifically investigated?
You have already done so but even asking the question proves that God does exist. Although I don't expect that you would understand why or except it if you did.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
I'll stipulate that there are lots of really smart qualified scientists whose parents named them Steve before they got their degrees if you'll stipulate that there are lots of really smart qualified scientists who chose to reject evolution with or without any help from their mommy and daddy.
The choice of the name "steve" was really just to lower the numbers.

In the same way (exactly the same way), it does not follow that because some creationists have been unscientific therefore creationism is unscientific, which is PRECISELY the argument that you made and which what you incorrectly claim was an appeal to authority refutes. I love it when people make self refuting arguments!
That's not at all what I said. I said creationism is unscientific and used the properties of science to explain why.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

In fact, if you want to be taken seriously, you should avoid saying such things. I mean, that's just stupidity.
And taking bits of a post and responding to it while ignoring the rest does the same for you.

This is all over generalized and none of it is actually true at all in the way you mean it, but that's a different debate.
So you don't actually want to discuss the *reasons* why I said creationism is unscientific? (The evidence rather than my say-so)

Even if all this were the case (just for the sake of argument), the exact same thing can be said of most of modern cosmology, physics and even evolution itself. You can't see it because your evolutionary paradigm won't allow you to see it.
So your answer is to say "I'm rubber you're glue?" This is not true at all and you've given no specific examples to support your case. Your answer is just "you're deluded" which isn't much of an argument at all.

And to address the "I'm rubber you're glue" response we'll go with what stripe added:

Evolutionism is unscientific for one simple reason. Its foundational claim is "evolution did it", and as everyone should agree, evolution is not subject to testing or any sort of investigation.
Wrong.

Evolution has been tested multiple times and continues to be tested.

Let's remember that evolution was proposed in a time before the understanding of DNA or genetics.

Darwin proposed that all life shared a common ancestor. DNA and genetics *could* have shown that not to be the case. There were many possibilities

There could have been entirely different genetic codes used in different organisms or entirely different genetic material, TNA or PNA instead of DNA. There could have been almost identical genes in every organism that encoded the exact same protein - say actin or tubulin. The idea that life had been around for millions of years and shared a common ancestor would have been destroyed by this last option since a gene couldn't have been around for billions of years with mutation and selection and stayed the exact same.

But we observed none of those things. Instead, relationships predicted by careful phylogenetic analysis were largely supported by genetics. Organisms that shared a common ancestor longer ago have more genetic differences, while organisms sharing a common ancestor more recently have fewer genetic differences.

For example, Mice and rats are far more different from one another at the genetic level than humans are to macaques or whales are to cows.

There's also patterns of multiple pseudogenes, endogenous retroviruses and the like. All of these could have been organized differently to give evidence of a recent de-novo creation, but they're not.

Creationism would never predict such a pattern. But they can try to "explain" it by saying "God just made it that way, because". That's what makes creationism unscientific.

Fossils too can be used to test evolution, find us a fossil of something BEFORE it could have possibly evolved. The classic "rabbit in the cambrian" is a well known example.
 

Jose Fly

New member
This an epistemological question that the atheist can't answer at all!

It's also a reason why creationism can't be scientific. If you find A, "God made it that way". If you find the opposite of A, "then God made it that way".

Scientifically

How was it scientifically determined that God doesn't cause lightning?

You provided a means yourself.

Huh? No I didn't. What is wrong with you?

You (the atheist) has far more and more important untestable claims that the Christian. Even your claim that your method of testing is valid cannot be substantiated without begging the question.

You're dodging the question. How can God be scientifically investigated?

You have already done so

Where?

but even asking the question proves that God does exist.

So if I asked about fairies, that proves they exist? Creationists sure are bizarre.
 

6days

New member
It is correct to say that creationists do not use the scientific method.
If you believe that you don't know your history nor the scientific method. Did Francis Bacon use the scientific method? Kepler? Newton? Did Robert Boyle, Faraday or Pasteur use the scientific method? Do modern scientists such as John Sanford or Raymond Damadian use the scientific method? As Kepler said science is thinking God's thoughts after Him."
Alate wouldn't answer those questions... Will you?
 
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