RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Right Divider]

Never ever.

:wave2:

You left out all those scriptures I gave about Paul quoting Jesus at the last supper when he made the covenant.

Clueless one, I was point out something about THAT SCRIPTURE that I quoted.

I don't need to quote the entire Bible every time.

Two REFERENCES to the new TESTAMENT in THIRTEEN epistles without a SINGLE clear indication of the body of Christ being in a covenant does NOT support your theory.

 

[beloved57]

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revealed to Paul, was the mystery, that the sacrificial death of Jesus was a ransom for all who would believe, both Jew and Gentile.

This mystery was not made known to the prophets of the old testament scriptures, neither to the twelve disciples. This mystery was hid in God and not made known to any before being revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5 Ephesians 3:9).

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What was made known in Matthew and Mark above, was that Christ gave his life to ransom many, not all. Christ gave his life to ransom Israel alone, the many. Christ redeemed the iniquities of Israel committed under the old testament (Hebrews 9:15).

Only the mystery revealed the ransom was for all, and was only testified in due time, when revealed to Paul.

This is simple, He gave Himself for all of the many ! The totality of the many, which many of course was comprised of many from the gentile world also !

 

[Right Divider]

This is simple, He gave Himself for all of the many !

Scripture twisting at its finest.

1Ti 2:3-4 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants everyone to be saved, but some refuse and God allows that. So simple.

 

[beloved57]

Scripture twisting at its finest.



God wants everyone to be saved, but some refuse and God allows that. So simple.

You arent speaking for the God of the scripture !

 

[Right Divider]

You arent speaking for the God of the scripture !

I just believe His Word as written... whereas you force a false story upon the Bible.

 

[beloved57]

I just believe His Word as written... whereas you force a false story upon the Bible.

Its simple, The God of scripture is the God of Sovereign discriminating Election.

 

[Right Divider]

Its simple, The God of scripture is the God of Sovereign discriminating Election.

You have a bogus idea of His sovereignty. God gives people choices by His sovereign will.

 

[beloved57]

You have a bogus idea of His sovereignty. God gives people choices by His sovereign will.

Thats not the God of scripture, but the god you have manufactured in your mind.

 

[Right Divider]

Thats not the God of scripture, but the god you have manufactured in your mind.

1Ti 2:3-4 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

³ This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, ⁴ who desires all men to be saved and to come to the ^[a]knowledge of the truth.

 

[beloved57]

No problem, again all of the many, Gods elect, its elementary

 

[Right Divider]

No problem, again all of the many, Gods elect, its elementary

That verse does NOT talk about "the many".

ALL MEN is crystal clear... unless you think that no women will be saved.

:dizzy:

 

[beloved57]

That verse does NOT talk about "the many".

ALL MEN is crystal clear... unless you think that no women will be saved.

:dizzy:

It talks about the Elect, same thing. Very elementary. Doesn't matter if the Spirit used many or all, its still all the many, the Elect

 

[Right Divider]

It talks about the Elect, same thing. Very elementary. Doesn't matter if the Spirit used many or all, its still all the many, the Elect

Again, your definitions of Bible words is fabricated and decidedly UN-Biblical.

You were already shown, from the Bible, that some of the "elect" were enemies of the gospel, but still beloved of God.

Rom 11:28 KJV As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Jesus is also "God's elect". Isaiah 42:1

 

[beloved57]

Again, your definitions of Bible words is fabricated and decidedly UN-Biblical.

You were already shown, from the Bible, that some of the "elect" were enemies of the gospel, but still beloved of God.



Jesus is also "God's elect". Isaiah 42:1

Rabbit trail. No matter how you slice it, the ransom for many or for all is limited to the Elect ! To say otherwise is unscriptural

 

[Right Divider]

Rabbit trail. No matter how you slice it, the ransom for many or for all is limited to the Elect ! To say otherwise is unscriptural

You are clueless.

 

[beloved57]

You are clueless.

Thats you.

 

[Right Divider]

Thats you.

:rotfl:

 

[thborn]

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revealed to Paul, was the mystery, that the sacrificial death of Jesus was a ransom for all who would believe, both Jew and Gentile.

This mystery was not made known to the prophets of the old testament scriptures, neither to the twelve disciples. This mystery was hid in God and not made known to any before being revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5 Ephesians 3:9).

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What was made known in Matthew and Mark above, was that Christ gave his life to ransom many, not all. Christ gave his life to ransom Israel alone, the many. Christ redeemed the iniquities of Israel committed under the old testament (Hebrews 9:15).

Only the mystery revealed the ransom was for all, and was only testified in due time, when revealed to Paul.

Perhaps correct. Of course, not every Believer will have the opportunity in this life to study the Bible in depth and determine what "covenent" and "mystery" and other terms mean to the fullest degree. Or maybe all members of the elect will just guided to the full answer by grace, sooner or later?

If God's plan involves me living long enough and study this for myself I will be glad. Worshiping God by studying and expounding upon Scripture is important.

What seems central is that 1) grace and 2) believing and 3) obeying God's will and 4) the person of Jesus Christ and the story of his time and earth....these are all connected. What many are arguing about is how they are connected. Those who keep the focus on giving God the most glory will be able to come to harmony (and perhaps agree to disagree on some points). The chosen are in harmony.

In order to come to harmony on what is essential to Christians relating to Jesus' sacrifice could we all come to agree on these things, through a plain reading of Scripture?
1. Jesus' blood removes the sin of all believers, and nobody saves themselves by doing works.
2. But Jesus and Paul exhort the Believers to live a life of radical kindness and giving glory to God. So the chosen/saved/elect, who have believed, almost without exception are doing these things. And if God's grace is causing you to do them radically then you can be just about sure you are truly saved.
3. We may as well give God the most glory by saying that anything good we do is by grace and not from us. God's grace makes us new people. Still, while living on this earth, one still has.to live through the suffering and the work. And if one is not, one should ask oneself some serious questions.

This is my focus right now rather than to focus on questions of exactly what the mystery is, exactly who Jesus is, and exactly how and why God determines things. But, like I said, if God is willing I will try to give glory to God by also studying those things!

 

[DougE]

Perhaps correct. Of course, not every Believer will have the opportunity in this life to study the Bible in depth and determine what "covenent" and "mystery" and other terms mean to the fullest degree. Or maybe all members of the elect will just guided to the full answer by grace, sooner or later?

If God's plan involves me living long enough and study this for myself I will be glad. Worshiping God by studying and expounding upon Scripture is important.

What seems central is that 1) grace and 2) believing and 3) obeying God's will and 4) the person of Jesus Christ and the story of his time and earth....these are all connected. What many are arguing about is how they are connected. Those who keep the focus on giving God the most glory will be able to come to harmony (and perhaps agree to disagree on some points). The chosen are in harmony.

In order to come to harmony on what is essential to Christians relating to Jesus' sacrifice could we all come to agree on these things, through a plain reading of Scripture?
1. Jesus' blood removes the sin of all believers, and nobody saves themselves by doing works.
2. But Jesus and Paul exhort the Believers to live a life of radical kindness and giving glory to God. So the chosen/saved/elect, who have believed, almost without exception are doing these things. And if God's grace is causing you to do them radically then you can be just about sure you are truly saved.
3. We may as well give God the most glory by saying that anything good we do is by grace and not from us. God's grace makes us new people. Still, while living on this earth, one still has.to live through the suffering and the work. And if one is not, one should ask oneself some serious questions.

This is my focus right now rather than to focus on questions of exactly what the mystery is, exactly who Jesus is, and exactly how and why God determines things. But, like I said, if God is willing I will try to give glory to God by also studying those things!

You can be sure you are saved by believing the gospel and the word of God

 

[thborn]

You can be sure you are saved by believing the gospel and the word of God

All who believe are saved.

Beyond that there are things which are not clear to me, even just going by the epistles clearly written by Paul. I believe I am still in a moment of spiritual transformation. Perhaps I have said some things above that are wrong. I pray that God will give me the grace to understand.