Question: If God exists, why is there evil?

[patrick jane]

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Spirit - pneuma, soul - psyche (mind), body - soma.

Three different Greek words with three different meanings.

Why would you cremate your body?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinism teaches that no one can do anything except what GOD has predetermined them to do.

Yes that is an accurate statement if and only if the presumption that by predetermined you mean ordination and that...

God's ordination includes the self-determination of the moral agent, the ability to choose according to one's own inclinations at the moment they so choose.

...is assumed in making the statement. Given what you and others post, I am confident that qualifier is being either purposely ignored or not well understood.

No one would possess the ability to choose according to their greatest inclinations at the moment they so choose had God not established (ordained) that moral ability in the first place. Said establishment of said moral ability, that self-determination, is included in God's ordaining in all that we think, do, or say.

In other words, one could rightly state,

"God ordained from eternity that AMR would use his granted by God self-determined ability, that is, to choose according to his greatest inclinations when he so chose, to write exactly what he wrote in this post."​

As explained in the link given near the end below and in many posts elsewhere, the fact that God knows I will do this is not impinging upon my self-determined free will. The fact that God knows what I will do is because He has ordained my doing along with all that enables me to do. I am the doer. God's knowledge beforehand, fore-knowledge, is not restricting my self-determination. Once more, God knows these things because He ordained them. What is being overlooked or simply ignored is that God's ordination included all the means, such as granting me self-determined free will. Any restrictions of persons' self-determination arise from their experiences, upbringing, contingencies around them, their personality, and their fallen nature from birth.

That God is the antecedent cause of my doing what I did, writing this post, does not relieve me of my moral responsibility, for my God-granted self-determination holds me accountable because I am the proximate cause of what I posted.

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If persons would avail themselves of a Scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some apparently prefer to just parrot others, or not seek out formal statements of their opponent's positions, or just not acknowledge previously provided explanations.

For more, see here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4949816&viewfull=1#post4949816

If a non-Calvinist or non-Reformed person wants to claim "Calvinists believe this or that" or "Calvinism teaches this or that" it would be fruitful to begin by starting with what orthodox Calvinism or Reformed groups have actually stated quite plainly in writing and rely upon these writings in their arguments. For unlike the non-Calvinist or Reformed, these persons will find that formal and detailed statements of the Calvinist and Reformed beliefs are readily available for examination such as to avoid the embarrassment that arises from mis-characterizing the position in question.

AMR

 

[Tambora]

Yes that is an accurate statement if and only if the presumption that by predetermined you mean ordination and that...



...is assumed in making the statement. Given what you and others post, I am confident that qualifier is being either purposely ignored or not well understood.

No one would possess the ability to choose according to their greatest inclinations at the moment they so choose had God not established (ordained) that moral ability in the first place. Said establishment of said moral ability, that self-determination, is included in God's ordaining in all that we think, do, or say.

In other words, one could rightly state,

"God ordained from eternity that AMR would use his granted by God self-determined ability, that is, to choose according to his greatest inclinations when he so chose, to write exactly what he wrote in this post."​

As explained in the link given near the end below and in many posts elsewhere, the fact that God knows I will do this is not impinging upon my self-determined free will. The fact that God knows what I will do is because He has ordained my doing along with all that enables me to do do. I am the doer. God's knowledge beforehand, fore-knowledge, is not restricting my self-determination. Once more, God knows these things because He ordained them. What is being overlooked or simply ignored is that God's ordination included all the means, such as granting me self-determined free will. Any restrictions of persons' self-determination arise from their experiences, upbringing, contingencies around them, their personality, and their fallen nature from birth.

That God is the antecedent cause of my doing what I did, writing this post, does not relieve me of my moral responsibility, for my God-granted self-determination holds me accountable because I am the proximate cause of what I posted.

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If persons would avail themselves of a Scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some apparently prefer to just parrot others, or not seek out formal statements of their opponent's positions, or just not acknowledge previously provided explanations.

For more, see here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4949816&viewfull=1#post4949816

If a non-Calvinist or non-Reformed person wants to claim "Calvinists believe this or that" or "Calvinism teaches this or that" it would be fruitful to begin by starting with what orthodox Calvinism or Reformed groups have actually stated quite plainly in writing and rely upon these writings in their arguments. For unlike the non-Calvinist or Reformed, these persons will find that formal and detailed statements of the Calvinist and Reformed beliefs are readily available for examination such as to avoid the embarrassment that arises from mis-characterizing the position in question.

AMR

Why wouldn't GOD be the proximate cause of your decision, since it was only by the actions of GOD's will that you could make that decision in the first place?
The proximate cause of your decision was per the action of GOD.

 

[jamie]

Why would you cremate your body?

What good is a dead body?

 

[patrick jane]

What good is a dead body?

I'll probably be cremated too.

 

[jamie]

Does God allow Satan to cause evil? If so, why?

 

[patrick jane]

Does God allow Satan to cause evil? If so, why?

See Job

 

[jamie]

See Job

Thanks, I will.

In Job 2:10 he asked his wife, "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

The rain falls on the just and unjust. In some places more so than other places.

 

[patrick jane]

Thanks, I will.

In Job 2:10 he asked his wife, "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

The rain falls on the just and unjust. In some places more so than other places.

But why?

 

[jamie]

But why?

I already said it's for our benefit in terms of spiritual growth.

Each one of us is tested.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Why wouldn't GOD be the proximate cause of your decision, since it was only by the actions of GOD's will that you could make that decision in the first place?
The proximate cause of your decision was per the action of GOD.

God is the First Cause. Do any Christians deny this? I would hope not.
The first actions of God in creating establish the fact that any of us can choose, no matter what one believes about free will. Moreover, God created your brain that does the choosing. Does that make Him the proximate cause of what that brain decides? No.

I guess I am not understanding the issue with my answer as relates to the First (antecedent) and Second Cause (proximate) issue. This is not a Calvinist-only thing at all.


AMR

 

[ttruscott]

There's more to it than that. If a person wants to develop physical strength they can use physical weights to amplify the downward pull of gravity.

If a person wants to develop spiritual strength they must overcome the downward pull of temptation to sin.

God is not tempted to sin and we must learn to turn off our temptation to sin by using the power of God's Spirit.(Hebrews 9:14)

Sure and you describe a part of sanctification process very well. I tend to use Heb 12:5-11 which describes GOD's method of using painful discipline to train HIS legitimate children in righteousness.

 

[ttruscott]

proximate cause...antecedent cause

There are those of us who hold as sacrosanct GOD's holiness and loving righteousness who do not just pay these things lip service as cool ideas.

GOD is in no way a cause of evil. Period. Creating people with a free will doesn't cause evil as billions of holy elect angels will attest to. Life doesn't even tempt people by their existence to do evil as James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; says. IF being created/given life led us into evil then this verse is a lie and GOD does tempt us to evil.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Yes that is an accurate statement if and only if the presumption that by predetermined you mean ordination and that...



...is assumed in making the statement. Given what you and others post, I am confident that qualifier is being either purposely ignored or not well understood.

No one would possess the ability to choose according to their greatest inclinations at the moment they so choose had God not established (ordained) that moral ability in the first place. Said establishment of said moral ability, that self-determination, is included in God's ordaining in all that we think, do, or say.

In other words, one could rightly state,

"God ordained from eternity that AMR would use his granted by God self-determined ability, that is, to choose according to his greatest inclinations when he so chose, to write exactly what he wrote in this post."​

As explained in the link given near the end below and in many posts elsewhere, the fact that God knows I will do this is not impinging upon my self-determined free will. The fact that God knows what I will do is because He has ordained my doing along with all that enables me to do. I am the doer. God's knowledge beforehand, fore-knowledge, is not restricting my self-determination. Once more, God knows these things because He ordained them. What is being overlooked or simply ignored is that God's ordination included all the means, such as granting me self-determined free will. Any restrictions of persons' self-determination arise from their experiences, upbringing, contingencies around them, their personality, and their fallen nature from birth.

That God is the antecedent cause of my doing what I did, writing this post, does not relieve me of my moral responsibility, for my God-granted self-determination holds me accountable because I am the proximate cause of what I posted.

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If persons would avail themselves of a Scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some apparently prefer to just parrot others, or not seek out formal statements of their opponent's positions, or just not acknowledge previously provided explanations.

For more, see here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4949816&viewfull=1#post4949816

If a non-Calvinist or non-Reformed person wants to claim "Calvinists believe this or that" or "Calvinism teaches this or that" it would be fruitful to begin by starting with what orthodox Calvinism or Reformed groups have actually stated quite plainly in writing and rely upon these writings in their arguments. For unlike the non-Calvinist or Reformed, these persons will find that formal and detailed statements of the Calvinist and Reformed beliefs are readily available for examination such as to avoid the embarrassment that arises from mis-characterizing the position in question.

AMR

God is the First Cause. Do any Christians deny this? I would hope not.
The first actions of God in creating establish the fact that any of us can choose, no matter what one believes about free will. Moreover, God created your brain that does the choosing. Does that make Him the proximate cause of what that brain decides? No.

I guess I am not understanding the issue with my answer as relates to the First (antecedent) and Second Cause (proximate) issue. This is not a Calvinist-only thing at all.


AMR

This really COULD be helpful; if anyone would bother to listen for the purposes of learning how they mischaracterize views in general, and of all aspects of discussing (alleged) "free" will in particular.

"Free" is not an adjective that should be used when referring to the human will without specific clarification (as if volition is somehow wholly distinct from cognition).

 

[oatmeal]

Answer: Romans 5:12

The rebellion of the first man, was evil and caused sin and death in this world that was created good by God.

Question: So why does God allow evil?

Answer:

God has worked to reverse evil with His good, to His glory.



". . The very point of Christ's (incarnation) life, death, and resurrection . . absorbs . . (evil) results, and thereby transforms them.

In the Person of Christ, God engages (not merely judges) the sinful doings of man, [but] takes them into His design.

In Christ, God converts (not merely condemns) the works of Evil, [but] makes them serve His purposes.

In Christ, God willingly endures the evil that men do against Him, and thereby reverses it meaning . . from bad to good; from wrong to right; from defeat to victory.

He purges wrong of its wrongness, by making it serve His love: 'You meant evil . . but God meant it for good.' Genesis 50:20 . . .

Christ has risen from the dead, trampling down death by death . . .

God can come to us in peace only by bearing our hostility; i.e. by submitting to violence at our hands. He can come to us in mercy only if He consents to be killed (as a substitute for the judgment we deserve; thus giving rise to the statement that 'Christ died for out sins.' II Cor. 15:3).

But in His consent, God's judgment is turned to salvation; in His submission, God's grace is unleashed.

And the eucharist has the same meaning: The loaf cannot nurture unless it is broken; but once broken it may feed many." Brooks Alexander, "Spiritual Counterfeits Newsletter", Volume 41:4

Because Lucifer and one third of the angels of God choose to disobey God