Question for Madists.

[Danoh]

Perhaps. So enlighten me.

Other than the fish-fry, nothing silly there.

What is it specifically that you are not clear on?

For you seem to be all over the map.

Also...

Not that anyone's insulting one another (whether first, or in kind, and or out of some sort of a perceived as a first slight, or not) is much of a witness of the power of the gospel of the grace of God, beyond its salvation aspect, nor does said insulting stand much of a chance of keeping anyone focused on the issues at hand.

Romans 5:8 towards you - in fact: towards us all.

 

[musterion]

An "ought" not a non-negotiable. If you do not want to be baptized, don't be baptized. For me, this is not a hill to die on. Sounds like it might be one to die on for you.

Yes or no: does refusing water baptism and having faith alone according to the saving Gospel displease God?

A few, one, a gazillian. Matters not. Unless you can find an explicit command to Paul from God not to baptize. He did baptize. A few in Corinth, and I suspect more in other places.

Water baptism is a work right out of Israel's Law. That fact alone precludes it today.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Yes or no: does refusing water baptism and having faith alone according to the saving Gospel displease God?



Water baptism is a work right out of Israel's Law. That fact alone precludes it today.

Not sure it is a yes or no kind of question unless you make the assumption that to be baptized is anathema to salvation by grace by faith. I do not think that is a good assumption for any who hold that baptism is not salvific.

Also not sure that one can say that Christian baptism is right out of Israel's law. Unless perhaps you are drawing a parallel to circumcism as a rite of initiation into the visible community.

 

[musterion]

Evasion.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Evasion.

Not at all. Why would you say that?

 

[Brother Ducky]

Yes or no: does refusing water baptism and having faith alone according to the saving Gospel displease God?

Let's assume one is saved. Given that, is there anything one can do that would displease God?

 

[Danoh]

Not sure it is a yes or no kind of question unless you make the assumption that to be baptized is anathema to salvation by grace by faith. I do not think that is a good assumption for any who hold that baptism is not salvific.

Also not sure that one can say that Christian baptism is right out of Israel's law. Unless perhaps you are drawing a parallel to circumcism as a rite of initiation into the visible community.

Obviously, you are going by the standard of far too many - the standard of "well, what makes sense to me" (absent of what you clearly have failed to study out) "is..."

Water baptism IS a work right out of Israel's Law.

But clearly, you have gone with "well, what makes sense to me" (from within my vacuum) "is..."

For clearly, you have not bothered to study out said fact about water baptism.

It was neither new, nor unexpected.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards you.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Obviously, you are going by the standard of far too many - the standard of "well, what makes sense to me" (absent of what you clearly have failed to study out) "is..."

Water baptism IS a work right out of Israel's Law.

But clearly, you have gone with "well, what makes sense to me" (from within my vacuum) "is..."

For clearly, you have not bothered to study out said fact about water baptism.

It was neither new, nor unexpected.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards you.

Again, so enlighten me. I will readily admit that there are ritual uses of water in the OT. Not sure you can extrapolate that to say baptism is out of Israel's law.

 

[Danoh]

Again, so enlighten me. I will readily admit that there are ritual uses of water in the OT. Not sure you can extrapolate that to say baptism is out of Israel's law.

I assume you have a Bible.

So study the issue out in the OT.

Anyone with common sense would automatically do that - especially when "two witnesses" (musterion and myself) have asserted that such is the case.

Rom. 5:8

 

[Brother Ducky]

I assume you have a Bible.

So study the issue out in the OT.

Anyone with common sense would automatically do that - especially when "two witnesses" (musterion and myself) have asserted that such is the case.

Rom. 5:8

Frankly sounds like a snipe hunt to me. And one over roughly 1300 pages of snipe country. If it is knowledge that you have gained completely independently of others, I can understand that you would want others to share the joy of discovery. I am willing to bet that your position has not been discovered by all who look at the OT.

Any reason that you are unwilling to help with this? Seems to me that most would greatly desire to help share and spread the truth. Or maybe that is just me.

 

[Danoh]

Frankly sounds like a snipe hunt to me. And one over roughly 1300 pages of snipe country. If it is knowledge that you have gained completely independently of others, I can understand that you would want others to share the joy of discovery. I am willing to bet that your position has not been discovered by all who look at the OT.

Any reason that you are unwilling to help with this? Seems to me that most would greatly desire to help share and spread the truth. Or maybe that is just me.

Again, what is keeping you from studying it out, yourself?

Fact is; I always give props where props are due.

I just as easily call a thing out.

So, again - what is keeping you from studying out in the OT those divers water baptisms mentioned by the writer of Hebrews "to the Hebrews"?

You well know you don't buy anyone's say so on a thing that you yourself are not familiar with.

So get familiar with this - get to studying it out in the OT.

On second thought - here, just in case you really are just too lazy to study the thing out in Scripture itself...

:chuckle:

http://free.messianicbible.com/feat...en-immersion-conversion-and-being-born-again/

http://www.hebroots.com/mikvah.html

Not that I hold with every point made in those two articles; but it should give you some idea of where in Scripture you might study this issue out in more depth.

Call that the Isaiah 8:20 principle

We can go...from there.

Nehemia 8:8, 12; Acts 17:11,12.

Rom. 5:8.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Again, what is keeping you from studying it out, yourself?

Fact is; I always give props where props are due.

I just as easily call a thing out.

So, again - what is keeping you from studying out in the OT those divers water baptisms mentioned by the writer of Hebrews "to the Hebrews"?

You well know you don't buy anyone's say so on a thing that you yourself are not familiar with.

So get familiar with this - get to studying it out in the OT.

On second thought - here, just in case you really are just too lazy to study the thing out in Scripture itself...

:chuckle:

http://free.messianicbible.com/feat...en-immersion-conversion-and-being-born-again/

http://www.hebroots.com/mikvah.html

Not that I hold with every point made in those two articles; but it should give you some idea of where in Scripture you might study this issue out in more depth.

Call that the Isaiah 8:20 principle

We can go...from there.

Nehemia 8:8, 12; Acts 17:11,12.

Rom. 5:8.

Sorry for the delay. Life gets in the way of TOL.

Articles were interesting enough, and saves me the time and trouble of visiting one of the local mitvot in case I wanted to build my own.

Obviously the form of baptism would follow that of an ablution ritual, but Paul seems to tie baptism to circumcsion and not to ablution per se, although some of the symbolism would be of ablution.

In that case, baptism is more of a rite of initiation into the visible body, where some are truly part of the body, and others not. OT roots? Yeah, but so what?