glorydaz
Well-known member
"Illogic"
Question for Madists.
- Thread starter Brother Ducky
- Start date
"Illogic"
Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Where was Tarsus?
In Cilicia.
Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
What did he do there?
A bit more on what Acts 9 related...
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 1:24 And they glorified God in me.
So, he went off to Syria and Cilicia (which is where Tarsus is).
What did he do there?
Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
So Barnabas joins Paul in Tarsus, and returns with him to Antioch.
Again, though - what did Paul do while in Syria and Cilicia (which is where Tarsus is)?
Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.
15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 17:11,12
Rom. 5:8.
Which explains Paul's relating his having water baptized so few, in 1 Cor. 1.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Acts 17:11, 12
Rom. 5:8.
musterion
Well-known member
And another spot where 28 falls down and goes boom. If Paul was, for a time, preaching the Kingdom gospel like the 12 were, he would have been water baptizing everyone he could.
That's because the Dispensationalism of the Acts 28 Position is inconsistent.
In other words, how they approach the study of one thing or another is not uniform throughout.
Same with Acts 2 Dispensationalism.
Some thoughts...
Same where any Mid-Acts Dispy ends up at an understanding that differs from things long solved for within, by, and or how Mid-Acts solves for such things.
Where there is an inconsistency in resulting understanding, it will be due to inconsistency in approach.
Likewise with what I have referred to as the ALMOST Acts 28 Position, that so offended you and those on here who hold to it.
You and others on here were offended by said reference as being a reference to the Acts 28 Position itself.
But that was your reading into that reference.
And reading into a thing is the same means by which the Acts 28 Position ends up off, where it does.
"ALMOST 28" and "28" are not even spelled the same way.
Meaning, you and others were offended by what you each assumed had been meant; by what you each read into that :chuckle:
What I'd meant was my observation that some views you and some others on here hold to about Paul's ministry, do not appear to have been arrived at through how Mid-Acts solves for such things, but appears to be instead, the result of a mix of the conclusions of both Mid-Acts and Acts 28.
And the approach of both schools differs.
Thus, the ALMOST 28 quip.
Unfortunately, said quip ran smack into an intolerance on the part of some on here, with having a thing pointed out to them.
The MAD I come from; many are not like that.
They openly welcome their challenging one another to hear a thing out; to consider it.
It is what it is with some.
Anyway, suffice it to say that if you'll keep these words in mind - inspired by your above point - you'll find yourself having self-corrected your views on some things as having been an inconsistent view of them, the next time you look at them.
Mid-Acts is like that, when it's practice is uniformly consistent in practice throughout.
Kind of like how you arrived at what you related in your above reply to me, but on a much wider scale.
Acts 17:11,12
Rom. 5:8.
Brother Ducky
New member
Makes sense. Where/when was Paul told not to baptize?
Right Divider
Body part
1Cor 1:17 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
I anxiously await your deflection
Brother Ducky
New member
Not sure the quotes help.
There would be a example of some being baptized twice if Paul did indeed baptize here.
But I was thinking of I Cor. 1, where he explicitly says he baptized.
Brother Ducky
New member
Deflection? My goodness gracious. The function of the thread is for me get clarification on some impressions I had of MADists, not to call out anyone. You seem to be more stridently anti-baptism than most. Not a big deal.
You may interpret Paul's statement here as meaning that he was told at some time, presumably after he had baptized some, not to baptize; but it is an interpretation.
If Paul was sent to preach, did he do anything other than preach? If he did anything other than his main function/call, might he have also baptized?
musterion
Well-known member
Because you don't want them to. You've already committed to water baptism as an ironclad non-negotiable.
Which would be ludicrous, but you don't like to see an alternate reading by means of quotation marks, so I can't help you further.
A few, and it clearly wasn't as important to him as it is to everyone today who practices w.b.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm use to the anti-MAD diatribes here. I thought that was the way you were heading. Sorry if I was wrong.
No, it is not interpretation. It is clear scripture. Paul says that Christ send him not to baptize. That is crystal clear.
That is a typically incorrect interpretation what is direct opposition to the clear scripture that states that Christ send Paul not to baptize.
Water baptism has no more a place in the body of Christ than does physical circumcision.
Brother Ducky
New member
An "ought" not a non-negotiable. If you do not want to be baptized, don't be baptized. For me, this is not a hill to die on. Sounds like it might be one to die on for you.
If I correctly understand you quotes you are 1] saying that the sentence most refer to those in Ephesus is in fact a reference to those baptized by John and 2] John explicitly baptized in the name of Jesus. Both interesting thought. The second is, I suspect, more problematical.
A few, one, a gazillian. Matters not. Unless you can find an explicit command to Paul from God not to baptize. He did baptize. A few in Corinth, and I suspect more in other places.
Brother Ducky
New member
OK, I certainly know where you stand on water baptism, so what about the Lord's Supper and sanctification?
You seem to believe that at some point in time, Paul was told, in essence, "Go preach" and "Do not baptize." The problem I see with that is why did Paul baptize any at Corinth, or why did he not mention that it was a later revelation that now causes him to avoid baptism. Given the context of the Corinthian factions, it makes more sense to me to think of his statement of primary purpose "to preach" and to minimize the secondary aspects of church life, baptism, because it could lead to factious practice; I was baptized by Paul [himself]. Much the same way one might be inclined to tell people they were baptized by Billy Graham.
Right Divider
Body part
Why do you keep trying to change the subject?
Only because that's what scripture says.
That is some silly stuff there BD.
God has always used progressive revelation. When Paul was called and given his ministry, he was NOT told everything that there was to know about it at one time. Same with the twelve and their ministry to Israel. Same with Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.
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Brother Ducky
New member
Actually, that is part of the original subject. I know some of the range of views of MADists on baptism. Seems to be of more concern than the Lord's Supper and sanctification.
Still not sure that "not sent to baptize" is the same as "sent to not-baptize." Seems to me that the vast majority of readers would not take the verse in the way that you do. And it would be nice to have a bit of story about how the change came about. Or some clear teaching/reminding Timothy and Titus.
Right Divider
Body part
The body of Christ has no required religious ceremonies to perform.
You really think that "sent not to baptize" is different than "not sent to baptize"?
The change came about when God revealed something new to Paul.
Brother Ducky
New member
It has to do with primary and secondary things. The primary purpose for Paul was to preach. Secondary things would be baptism [for you, up until a certain time], celebrating the Lord's supper, teaching, fish fry fund raising, etc. You do not seem to be taking the context into consideration.
You seem to take it as relating a direct revelation/command for Paul "Do not baptize again." That certainly does not seem to be the force of the passage. Especially when considered in context.
Do you beleive that post-Corinthians Paul recieved another direct revelation/command to never celebrate the Lord's supper?
Right Divider
Body part
You do not understand Paul's ministry.
What makes you say silly things like that?
Brother Ducky
New member
Right Divider
Body part
Paul was uniquely called by God and given a dispensation of the gospel; the gospel of the grace of God.
Nobody else ever claims to have been given that same thing.